1960 SII 109 Teardown

[oldgravy]

Thanks for the tip, JB. I'll give it some thought, but I'm not confident I can drill cleanly enough to avoid marring the threads. Headed out to the garage now so hopefully some heat will help!

[oldgravy]

Heat did not help, unfortunately, and it felt like I was almost bending a 2' long breaker bar.

The t-case & transmission are still in the truck, and I sort of feel it'll be easiest to get this nut off so I can get the flange off while it's still in the frame. If I take the t-case out it'll have to be drilled as JB suggests, I fear. Any other genius ideas? Will ponder.

[red90]

A 3/4" drive impact. They do over 1200 lb-ft and nothing that size should stop one. Maybe you can borrow or rent. If you are using a 1/2" air impact, make sure to turn the air pressure up to the compressor's maximum and give it some time.

[oldgravy]

Success! Right after posting this update I got irritated with myself and went out to try again. My original thinking, in trying to take the blasted thing off, was that I shouldn't put any stress on the flange (via clamping or vice grips or whatever) and shouldn't put any stress on the gearbox or transfer case.

However, a quick read on the S2Club website suggested selecting two gears at once -- for a t-case that wasn't in situ -- so what the hell, I thought. Put 'er in gear and cranked with the bar. The engine turned over once or twice, but the nut finally loosened off, thankfully, and the flange is out! There is some damage to the thread on the shaft, but it should be easily cleaned up with a file.

http://i1377.photobucket.com/albums/ah4 ... gcrn9i.jpg

I can see why the brake drum and propshaft bolts were so irritating to remove, spinning inside the drum. The corners are well rounded! Those will have to come out.

What else did I do today? Took the radiator off and separated it from the steel front fascia. What a lovely, random collection of nuts and bolts! 3 different types, just for fun:

http://i1377.photobucket.com/albums/ah4 ... gwz4z8.jpg

The rust in the foreground is from the rear spring's front outrigger -- they seem to be full of mud and rust and look like they might need to be replaced, there's a fair bit of what used to be metal in there amongst the caked on mud.

Flushed out the radiator, too; seemed like there was about, I dunno, a third or a half of a cup of rusty flakes in the bottom of the rad when I drained it? Top bung looks like it was welded / epoxied on by someone with my level of skill:

http://i1377.photobucket.com/albums/ah4 ... lsa8wq.jpg

Are they always this... uhm, bush league?

Neat identification plates on the top, though. Was mine made in October of '59?

http://i1377.photobucket.com/albums/ah4 ... 2m3oez.jpg

Rolled the truck out as far into the driveway as I dared, realizing I'd have to push it back in to the garage single-handedly, so I could give the truck a hose down and clean out the garage behind. Glad I did, now I can see the frame a bit better now and 12+ years of dust, cobwebs, and wasp's nests are mostly gone.

I've cleaned out the occasional nut, the edible kind that is, as well. Field mice? Squirrels?

Current status:

http://i1377.photobucket.com/albums/ah4 ... tlzsmu.jpg

Pretty much everything aft of the transmission is out; bulkhead is about halfway stripped. Next to come off will be some of the ancillaries and the rest of the bulkhead, then it'll be time for an engine hoist to pull the engine, gearbox, and t-case for checkup. Then axles & suspension are all that's left and I should be down to a bare frame!

Edit: Thanks for the advice, Red, but I have no compressor -- I'm doing everything by hand.

[oldgravy]

This thread is turning into a bit of a daily blog, at least while I have some free time, so I hope no one minds the updates. I was really inspired by this blog http://1960landroverrestoration.blogspot.ca so I thought I'd start recording my progress similarly.

Today's task was to clean off the workbench and put away some stuff, and reorganize the parts boxes I'm using to keep most of the assemblies in manageable (organized) chunks. I have a box for stuff I pulled off the bulkhead, things I stripped from the tub, front brake parts, etc. etc. Having never done this before I hope I've been thorough enough with my organization -- we'll see when it comes time for reassembly. One thing I haven't done is kept track of the weird bolts / bits / trash that I've pulled out, figuring I'll probably have to order a great whack of bolts / nuts and every seal & gasket, etc.

So I pulled the pedal boxes off, with pedals; couldn't initially figure out how that was supposed to work, having assumed I'd pull the pedals out first then the pedal boxes, but it seems that you have to pull the whole assembly out through the hole in the bulkhead.

As is the norm with this Rover, it seems like every fitting / screw / nut was a different size. I ran out of room to store wrenches when draining the brake fluid (which I did by unscrewing a really strange plug from the 4-way junction; more on that later.) Of course, the bolts holding the pedal boxes in were two different lengths:

http://i1377.photobucket.com/albums/ah4 ... oqcz48.jpg

I originally approached removing the pedal boxes the usual way, by getting a wrench + socket combo going to remove the nuts. However, the nuts on the top of the pedal boxes were a very odd size, and none of my wrenches fit (are they Whitworth or something?) Luckily, I was able to just ratchet the bolts out. Perhaps the pedal boxes have nuts that are tacked or epoxied on or something.

One of the bolts holding the brake cover plate in was odd. I've never seen a machine screw with a Robertson head before:

http://i1377.photobucket.com/albums/ah4 ... 4y2d2g.jpg

... at least, not an older one. I imagine they're common nowadays, perhaps this was added later. The bottom fluid pipe connector on the bean can was a b*tch to undo.

Also pulled the transmission brake backing plate off the transfer case:

http://i1377.photobucket.com/albums/ah4 ... j5tkzj.jpg

... and figured out why it was full of oil and gunk. Looks like the rear seal keeper plate -- or whatever it's called -- is bent in one place, and there was no gasket. Wasn't much fluid in the transfercase, either, when I drained it, so it's easy to guess where some of it went.

You can just see the bend in the foreground, and (naturally) one of the lock washers is different from the others.

http://i1377.photobucket.com/albums/ah4 ... c4pmdk.jpg

Honestly, I wonder how far I'll have to go into this project to find a set of nuts & bolts that don't have something unique about them. :mrgreen:

[Rambler]

No complaints here re the daily update. Finding this super interesting and helpful as I'm in the same boat. Re the fasteners. Initially I was ordering bolts from various land rover places via the part number, but then I learned that most parts in the parts book are fine thread bolts of ¼" or 5/16" in ½, ¾" and longer sizes. I found it good to go to a local bolt supply place and source these buying a 100 at a time with nuts and spring washers. Yes there will be some places where BSF or whitworth or some other will be required, but this has saved some time and money. And i feel better replacing those odd robinson or whatever nuts and screws that have been substituted over the years. The BA size of machine screws are getting hard to buy anyway, so I'm making do with SAE or in some cases metric. I.e. 3BA is 4.1mm so a 4mm screw works...

For the brake (and clutch) pedal towers Im just about to start the strip down. The top cover normally have flat / blade type of screw top, so think the PO swapped in that Robinson one.

Re the transmission brake and oil seal leak. Mine is also leaking. The oil catcher shield (shield that is bent in your photo) is not a proper Land rover item. (Pn: 561368). Well it looks different to the one I have and that was fitted to my last rover too. New ones are still available from the UK for a few quid.

Yes, The pedal boxes do have captive nuts to screw 6 x 5/16 unf bolts into them on each box.

Good luck with the Restoration. I am dissassembling / cleaning and then repainting my throttle assembly. It was murder trying to get it in bits. Hopefully
I took enough photos to help put it together again!
Cheers, Ian

[DrRangelove]

Keep it coming mate... loving this thread!

[oldgravy]

Thanks for the tips, @Rambler. I'll be doing a full bearing & seal replacement of the gearbox and transfer case, I think, just given the fact that I can't know whether or not the truck was working and what shape everything's in. Plus, if I'm pulling everything off the frame for a dip and repair, it makes sense to get to that kind of thing now while it's easier to do.

Today's challenge is trying to find a way to disassemble the steering components. There isn't much left to pull off, strictly speaking, save for a few hours stripping the bulkhead, removing flexi brake lines, and whatnot. The engine is more or less ready to come out (I think) and it's even made a bit easier because the PO forgot to put a couple of nuts back on the gearbox + engine mounts! He must surely have been thinking of me. :wink:

Anyway, my challenge is: How did you gentlemen remove the steering box drop arm? I've removed the 1 1/8" nut and lock washer, but splitting the arm off of the splined shaft is proving to be challenging. I don't have "Special Tool 600000" as cited in the manual which, in my imagination, is a Thor-sized hammer.

Seriously though, I'm guessing there's a right size of wedge that you simply hammer down over the shaft which splits the arm off? I can't see another way to remove the upper steering linkage without taking apart the bulkhead / steering support and associated fixing. Even then, I'll need some way to get the drop arm off. Probably. There's a fair bit of steering play in the box so I think it'll need a looksee.

Enjoyed using my angle grinder with a cut-off wheel for the first time to get the exhaust out. It had been fed through the PTO pass-through in the chassis cross-member so there was no way it was coming out without being cut. Have to say, grinding is more fun than I thought it'd be.

[BOlson]

What you need is a pitman arm puller, http://www.harborfreight.com/media/cata ... _18336.jpg

Available at Princess auto, Lordco, Etc...

[oldgravy]

Yeah. I'm guessing there's no removing the steering box, then, without first removing the manifolds at least, or indeed the whole engine.

[red90]

Correct. On a series, there is no using a pitman arm puller with the manifolds in place. Be careful when setting up the steering system. The manual does not do a very good job of explaining how to properly line up all the bits and people do it wrong frequently.

[oldgravy]

Thanks @red and @bolson. People do it wrong... how? It seems fairly straightforward and I've taken a few snaps.

I'm hoping to get the steering relay out while the engine is still in there in case the weight is needed. That's tomorrow's task, I think!

[oldgravy]

Alright, I'm at an irritating stage in the teardown. :?

I'm trying to remove the final major components from frame & bulkhead in preparation for hoisting out the engine, & gearbox. However, I'm stuck on almost all the things I'm trying to do.

I did buy a Pittman arm puller for the steering box, but I can't take the steering column out because I can't get the puller into the very limited space to take the drop arm off. I only have limited space because I can't get the manifolds off, the pipes being too big to get a socket onto some of the bolts and the space at the back of the engine too limited to get a regular wrench in there. Maybe I'll have to go buy a stubby crescent wrench or something.

I'm also trying to get the steering relay out, but I can't get the lower plate off. It's... stuck. I've removed the bolts and tried prying it down and off the frame, but I just ended up bending the crap out of the bottom retaining plate. Unless there's some magic trick, I'm going to have to get under there and keep trying to find a way to lever it off.

Next, my preferred method for getting the relay out is to use a bottle jack and bit of wood from below to push it up and out of the frame, while the engine is still in. However, the tie rod is in the way and I can't remove it either because I can't find a way to get the ball joints off of the various relay arms in play. I bought a cheap 3-claw puller from Princess Blotto but it won't shift the arm off the ball joint:

http://i1377.photobucket.com/albums/ah4 ... wfc2zc.jpg

I must be doing something wrong, but I can't quite figure out what it is. I ended up buggering one of the threaded ends of the ball joint with the puller trying to get the arm off:

http://i1377.photobucket.com/albums/ah4 ... v6sjmm.jpg

The puller dug a significant groove in the ball joint and I blunted my puller. :(

So I can't get the steering out, can't get the manifolds off with the engine in the truck, and can't shift the relay without resorting to a BFH or buying a new, giant 2-arm puller.

[DrRangelove]

Try a ball joint splitter gravy. They need a good shock to break the taper. Alternatively two hammers will do the trick if you have good hand eye cordination (i used a splitter lol)

[John Boy]

Ok, first. Place the bolt back on the threaded end of the tie rod. This will save the threads from damage. The nut should be threaded on just far enough to catch the first few threads and act as a stabilizer for your puller. So some nut on threads some nut to balance the puller contacting the tie rod. Then, tighten the puller so that pressure is on the part you want to remove. Then, with big hammer, hit the top of the puller. The part that you turn to tighten the puller. The impact to the puller, with pressure from the puller on the tie rod will jar the thing loose. The nut will stop it from flying apart. The key is puller pressure then impact the puller with hammer. Hope I explained it clear, if not, YouTube video will show it better. Cheers mate

[Rob]

I think the trick to this problem is vibration, not force, to break the tapered shaft of the ball joint loose from the drop arm. From your picture you've got the nut loosened off so without any pullers or tools putting pressure into the joint just try taping (not bashing) with moderate force the side of the drop arm perpendicular to the shaft (see the picture below, not the exact component but similar). The vibration from the impacts should go through the drop arm metal and with luck will break-free the bond between the drop arm and the tapered shaft running through it. Since I learned this trick from another rover owner I haven't used a ball-joint fork or other tools that apply force to the ball joint as the hammer taping on the side seems to work. I equate it to how the intermittent impacts of an impact driver will break a nut free that the steady force of a long wrench or bar may not.

http://forums.lr4x4.com/uploads/1165342 ... 830385.jpg

There is a pretty good article with pics on a similar project that can be found here http://forums.lr4x4.com/index.php?showtopic=10088

I hope this helps.

Rob

[S3ute]

Hello from the antipodes.

Can't comment on the pitman arm removal because the right hand drive variants have the column and steering box on the opposite side of the engine. However, I can say that those cheap off the shelf pullers from your typical auto shop are usually fine but will also usually require having the jaws cut down a fraction to clear the arm and grip the shaft. This is more cost effective than paying the over the top price for the LR special tool.

Re the steering tie rod ends - the easiest procedure is to loosen the nuts a few turns - almost off. Then take a hammer and give a sharp tap on the nut as it is a tapered fit. Most times this is enough to dislodge the joint from the steering rods. Worked fine on mine.

Re the relay - you have my sympathy.... There is no shortage of tales of woe about adventures in that domain. Elsewhere I have suggested treating it like caring for Granny's peonies. Walk past the job every few days and give it a good watering of penetrating oil (not WD40 which is a water dispersant) and after several weeks do the block and jack trick - aided perhaps with a very large hammer.

Cheers,

Neil

[S3ute]

Hello again from the antipodes.

On further reflection re the relay I might offer a couple of bits of advice.

Firstly, getting the old unit out is usually a total pig of a job - everyone knows this. However, more often than not it isn't actually necessary. Generally, the relays don't wear out but rather suffer from histories of extremely poor maintenance. That is, from birth to death they are rarely checked to see if either the oil or seals are still OK. Usually, slack here is because either the internal cones have dried out or shrunk or the o rings have failed. More often than not simply refilling the relay with oil will bring them back to life - this is a bit tricky but there are plenty of threads around that tell you the procedure. Relay seals can be replaced without removing the unit from the chassis.

The next bit is that the replacement relays you see on eBay for around $100 are more likely than not pattern parts from India or China. More often than not these will also fail in not too distant a time. It is probably more cost- effective to have the original unit reconditioned - comments above notwithstanding.

Finally, if you do take the relay out of the chassis then think of the poor sod who might one day attempt to replace it. Coat it liberally with copper grease before reinserting it into the tube of death.....

Cheers,

Neil

[red90]

As above, on TREs, hit them hard on the side with a hammer. Just keep hitting until it pops off. It works 100% of the time. Never use a puller or fork.

The pitman arm is not tapered, so it does not work. You need a real, heavy duty pitman arm puller. The heavier dutier, the betterer.

[S3ute]

Hello again from Brisbane.

Re the pitman arm and pullers. The issue of clearance aside, my own experience with removing the arm is that the puller doesn't have to be particularly big, just big enough to clear the width of the arm at the shaft - basically although the shaft isn't tapered like a tie rod end the removal procedure isn't dissimilar.

You can put the puller in place and wind it up to put a lot of pressure on the joint then give it a soak in penetrating oil for a day or so and then give it a sharp hit with a hammer. Most of the time it will release. That is, the puller doesn't necessarily pull the arm off the shaft - in fact, more often than not it doesn't - just puts enough pressure on it for the shock of the hit to do the releasing once the oil has had a chance to break the seal.

Cheers,

[oldgravy]

Wow, gents, thanks very much for the advice. It is truly appreciated! I can't imagine starting, let alone continuing with this project without the community's help -- this kind of knowledge is invaluable for keeping newcomers moving.

I'll take a look at the BJs (ha!) today, I think. With some luck, I should have some progress!

@S3ute - the only reason I want the relay out is because I'm intending to have the chassis acid dipped and repaired, then give it a full repaint. It's the original chassis and it's not beyond saving, so I'd like to keep it!

[red90]

@S3ute - the only reason I want the relay out is because I'm intending to have the chassis acid dipped and repaired, then give it a full repaint. It's the original chassis and it's not beyond saving, so I'd like to keep it!

If you are stripping bare then get it galvanized. It is no more expensive than paint and much better.

[swamijake]

I'd have to agree on the galvanizing. I looked into it 2 years ago and the price I got from Silver City on Annacis Island was $400 for acid dip and hot galvanize for a frame.

[swamijake]

I took a relay out about a year ago with a big floor jack that I chained to the frame. I doused it in penetrating oil and cranked down on the jack as hard as I could and left it for a few days with 2 or 3 tons of pressure on it. It came out pretty easy after that. As for steering joints I use the fork thing and bash everything with a hammer in all directions. They always come loose, usually just before I get out the torch.

[oldgravy]

Success!

http://i1377.photobucket.com/albums/ah4 ... j9crsi.jpg

In the picture above, you can see how mangled the whole arrangement was by the time I'd finished with it. It took some repairs to the threads on the ball joint with a file, and some strong curse words, but it's off. As you can see, my inexpensive puller had threaded itself into the castle nut, then stripped it. You can't see the peening over on the top of the nut from where it was hit with a significant hammer, but it's there. I knew the ball joint needed replacing anyway, so realistically I just wanted it separated from the top arm off the steering relay.

The other ball joints came free considerably easier, though in some cases not without effort. New nuts for sure will be required in a couple of cases. Interestingly, two of the ball joints were replaced at some point; two have the newer grease nipples on them and have rubber that's still rubber and not powder. Time to add at least a couple of that type to the parts list...

On the arm coming off the top of the passenger side swivel there appears to be an interesting casting flaw / repair:

http://i1377.photobucket.com/albums/ah4 ... tdbshb.jpg

Seems that there was a chunk out of the metal so it was filled, incompletely, at one point. I've heard it's easier to convert the swivels to Railko bushings so when I start looking at that I may look for a replacement arm. I don't *think* the metal is that bad, but one thing for sure, this Rover has had a very hard life. There are signs everywhere! I don't think there's an un-dented surface underneath the vehicle. Every crossmember and outrigger has dents and bends in it, the sump is dented in several places, and there are some ugly frame patches below.

So I'm trying the 'ole 'use a bottle jack to free up your relay' trick, and it doesn't seem to be working:

http://i1377.photobucket.com/albums/ah4 ... z84g6u.jpg

Though having now done it and left it for 24h, there isn't enough weight in the vehicle to shift the relay, despite having lifted the front end off the ground. I've tried bashing the frame (well, the 2x4 on top of the frame) with a 4lb hammer to no avail. The relay is stuck in there for sure, so I'll need to look at the Swing Method to maybe get a little more pressure on it. Hopefully my 3 ton bottle jack will suffice!

Irritatingly, there's just one pit on the driver's side swivel ball:

http://i1377.photobucket.com/albums/ah4 ... joqcgx.jpg

I don't suppose it can be sanded smooth so as not to damage the seal too much and left? :roll: Didn't think so, so it looks like one of those will get added to the parts list as well. ;)

Frustratingly close to having a bare frame. Hopefully will have acquired an engine hoist this weekend to get the major assemblies off the frame and on to some pallets where I can work on them.

Any suggestions for pallets or other suchlike so I don't have to buy an engine stand?