Meet Garth! - 1973 Series III

[rayhyland]

Loving this thread, keep it coming.

[flipstah]

Thanks!

Well, the original Lucas alternator came off and had it tested; doesn't work.

Currently being reconditioned and will have it back next week! ^.^

[flipstah]

Alternator has been rebuilt and is bolted on!

https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/ ... 3453_n.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/ ... 4091_n.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/ ... 3964_n.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/ ... 7821_n.jpg

The socket and wiring will definitely need replacing as well since it's brittle.

http://s113.photobucket.com/user/dj_fli ... 5.mp4.html

:thumbsup:

He needs winter tires fast lol.

Also, here is the Blackstone analysis for the Pennzoil 5W30. Right now, it's on Rotella 15W30:

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/ ... 0884_n.jpg

[flipstah]

Bah, winter did something to Garth.

FML. Having carburetor issues.

The fuel is leaking out and not creating a vacuum to feed, so it won't cold-start.

Battery is fully charged and the engine is warm but it won't finish cranking.

:banghead:

[Greg S]

Bah, winter did something to Garth.

FML. Having carburetor issues.

The fuel is leaking out and not creating a vacuum to feed, so it won't cold-start.

Battery is fully charged and the engine is warm but it won't finish cranking.

:banghead:

First: Try posting it in the proper forum so people can answer it for you, not everyone will be reading it on your build page.
Try the Question and Answer page for technical and Mechanical issues. http://www.roverlanders.bc.ca/roverforu ... um.php?f=5

Second: Sorry, I've been involved with theses things for many years and have no idea what you just said. A fuel leak is preventing a vacuum? Won't finish cranking?

[flipstah]

Bah, winter did something to Garth.

FML. Having carburetor issues.

The fuel is leaking out and not creating a vacuum to feed, so it won't cold-start.

Battery is fully charged and the engine is warm but it won't finish cranking.

:banghead:

First: Try posting it in the proper forum so people can answer it for you, not everyone will be reading it on your build page.
Try the Question and Answer page for technical and Mechanical issues. http://www.roverlanders.bc.ca/roverforu ... um.php?f=5

Second: Sorry, I've been involved with theses things for many years and have no idea what you just said. A fuel leak is preventing a vacuum? Won't finish cranking?

From what I understand, when you pump the gas, the carb is fed gas so that you can start it. The choke is up and once it starts, you level out the choke until idle has calmed down then you push the choke all the way then you're on your merry way.

Whenever I pump the gas, fuel is leaking near the carb. Smoke is sputtering out of the exhaust but it just won't finish the ignition process.

[Dave_F]

fix the leak near the carb... :wink: to start....

[flipstah]

https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/ ... 3530_o.jpg

Leaky leak.

[RobTheGob]

Awesome thread. I especially like the pics from the Forestry Trunk recreation areas - I used to be on those trails every weekend in my 63 SIIa.

You should be able to get up those steps - power shouldn't be limiting you! Could the "stalling" when climbing be related to the Weber carb? My old Solex had no issues climbing step inclines. I wonder if you are starving for fuel?

[Greg S]

From what I understand, when you pump the gas, the carb is fed gas so that you can start it. The choke is up and once it starts, you level out the choke until idle has calmed down then you push the choke all the way then you're on your merry way. Whenever I pump the gas, fuel is leaking near the carb. Smoke is sputtering out of the exhaust but it just won't finish the ignition process.

Okay, bear with me for awhile. Here are some real basic concepts of how a gasoline engine with a carburetor works. Please take note: I am NOT being condescending or mean to belittle anyone in any of this. People now have grown up never having had anything to do with carburetor engines so have no concept of the process or terms. The principals are significantly different from a fuel injected engine and many people never have to consider them. Personally, I can't understand the basic concepts of modern fuel injected systems with their electronic.

Concept #1 Liquid fuel (gasoline) does NOT burn or explode. It must first be converted to a gaseous form (evaporated). Cold air does not allow for much evaporation, nor does a cold engine.

2) When an engine is cold a normal carb with open choke does not suck enough liquid fuel into the intake to allow for sufficient evaporation to allow combustion (about 13% fuel to air ratio).

3) So with a float bowl full of fuel, one pump of the throttle pedal will cause the accelerator pump to deposit a shot of raw liquid gasoline into the manifold where it will sit. As the intake air passes over it, a bit evaporates, enriching the fuel/air mix. Too much pumped into the manifold can make the mixture too rich, too high of a concentration of fuel to air, so it is above the combustion range of gasoline (a "flooded" engine). Be careful not to pump too much fuel with the accelerator pump while starting. One pump is generally enough.

4) The choke in a closed position causes a very high vacuum inside the carb and because it can't get air, it sucks a much higher amount of liquid gasoline than normal through the jets causing it to mist and enrich the intake air. This, combined with a little pool of liquid gasoline you pumped into the manifold, should get the fuel air mix to about the required 13%.

5) When the engine fires it produces heat and the manifold is heated at the base of the carb which aids in the conversion of the liquid gasoline into a gaseous form so it will ignite easier in the combustion chamber. As it heats up and the fuel evaporates easier, it need less liquid gasoline pulled into the process to make the ideal mixture so the choke is slowly opened to reduce the higher vacuum inside the carb so it pulls progressively less gasoline into the process.

6) You have to balance the running of the engine with opening the choke so it runs as smooth as possible until it is fully warm.

7) Cold air, cold steel, cold aluminum and cold gasoline all make it more difficult to start. Any moisture in the fuel system, especially so much as part of a drop in the carburetor, will restrict gasoline flow in a passage or jet making it almost impossible to start, especially if it has turned to ice. Dirt has the same effect but isn't dependant on the cold.

8) A carb "icing up" has little to do with ambient temperatures being below freezing or the formation of ice inside the float bowl, passages or jets of a carburetor. Nor does it have to do with ice forming on the outside of a carburetor. "Icing " of a carb is the intake air being refrigerated in the venturi INSIDE the carb and forming ice IN the throat of the carb, restricting air flow and flow of a fine mist of fuel out the jets. Usually happens from a degree or two below freezing to 10 degrees above freezing in humid atmospheres and occurs while the engine is running, not while it is in the starting process.

Any help?

"Fuel is leaking near the carb". Where from? A worn throttle shaft bushing can allow fuel from the accelerator pump to leak out there when you pump the throttle or it could leak from a bad carb gasket at the manifold. If you have a leak at the gasket, you are getting diluting amounts air into the system, reducing the fuel/air mixture.

"when you pump the gas, the carb is fed gas" No. Not really. The carb should already have gas. What you are doing is depositing a little pool of raw liquid gasoline into the intake manifold to enrich the intake air. You are feeding gasoline THROUGH the carb to the intake.

"choke is up and once it starts, you level out the choke until idle has calmed" Up? The coke plate inside the carb is usually referred to as "open" or "closed". Closed to start a cold engine and slowly open it in increments to retain a smooth but faster idle than normal. Once fully warmed up, the choke control is moved to the choke-fully-open position. Along with closing the choke plate the choke control also increases idle speed. Increasing is the first thing it does when putting the choke on (closing it) and decreasing it is last thing that happens when you take the choke off (open it). Choke control adjusts the "idle stop" to change the idle throttle setting.

"smoke out the exhaust" Unburnt fuel/air mixture.

"won't finish the ignition process" The ignition "system" in an automobile is the system that provides an electrical spark inside the combustion chamber at precisely the right time. The ignition process is likely finishing, it is just that the engine isn't "firing" as a result. I suppose you could argue it isn't finishing but I think what you are getting at is "not firing" or not "continuing to fire"; the combustion isn't happening thoroughly enough to continue to run. This results in sputtering smoke out the exhaust.

[flipstah]

I appreciate the lesson, Greg. I am still new at this and the Land Rover is my teaching ground so I do take any advice to heart.

So from what I've seen and read around, the carb is in need of a rebuild. I found this kit on the internet and was wondering how complex is it to do? It looks simple but that can be deceiving:

http://www.piercemanifolds.com/product_ ... 0major.htm

I'm also planning to replace the fuel line because I found that the hose leaks in the undercarriage as well.

[Greg S]

...I found this kit on the internet and was wondering how complex is it to do? It looks simple but that can be deceiving:...
I'm also planning to replace the fuel line because I found that the hose leaks in the undercarriage as well.

Yes, yes! replace the fuel line! Does yours have the mechanical pump on the engine? If so, it is a bit inefficient in my opinion to have soft rubber suction line between the tank and pump. In a rear mounted station wagon tank, at the back of the vehicle, as far as my experience goes it does anyway. You seem to lose efficiency, possibly by the hose contracting on suction strokes. Maybe not, just an observation that lead me to installing a $40 electric pump (4 to 7 psi) near the tank. Most of my fuel delivery problems disappeared after that. Ran it in series with the mechanical one.

How complex is it to rebuild a twin barrel carb? I have never had one apart. Sorry, can't help you with that one but other carbs I've had apart have been reasonably easy. You must keep the parts in order, clean and kept track of. Don't use silicon gasket goop on them or you're asking for problems. Learn how small an amount of force is needed to tighten things up. Too much torque on those little machine screws will strip or break them or compress gaskets incorrectly. Download instructions and a diagram and have them right beside you to set it up properly.

[BOlson]

If you are going to rebuild your carb, use chap stick on the gaskets ( just the regular black tube no flavors )

[flipstah]

...I found this kit on the internet and was wondering how complex is it to do? It looks simple but that can be deceiving:...
I'm also planning to replace the fuel line because I found that the hose leaks in the undercarriage as well.

Yes, yes! replace the fuel line! Does yours have the mechanical pump on the engine? If so, it is a bit inefficient in my opinion to have soft rubber suction line between the tank and pump. In a rear mounted station wagon tank, at the back of the vehicle, as far as my experience goes it does anyway. You seem to lose efficiency, possibly by the hose contracting on suction strokes. Maybe not, just an observation that lead me to installing a $40 electric pump (4 to 7 psi) near the tank. Most of my fuel delivery problems disappeared after that. Ran it in series with the mechanical one.

How complex is it to rebuild a twin barrel carb? I have never had one apart. Sorry, can't help you with that one but other carbs I've had apart have been reasonably easy. You must keep the parts in order, clean and kept track of. Don't use silicon gasket goop on them or you're asking for problems. Learn how small an amount of force is needed to tighten things up. Too much torque on those little machine screws will strip or break them or compress gaskets incorrectly. Download instructions and a diagram and have them right beside you to set it up properly.

You mean like this?

https://scontent-b-sea.xx.fbcdn.net/hph ... 0216_n.jpg

I found this underneath the truck but wasn't entirely sure what it was until I followed the line. It led to the fuel tank.

I have manuals and it doesn't look TOO complicated. It's like a puzzle that you can't put away.

[egatada]

Looks like a Lucas electric fuel pump to me.

[flipstah]

Okay, so ignore my dad pumping the accelerator like a mad man haha.

I already know the fuel hose needs replacing and the carb is in need of a major rebuild (the kit is coming soon). I just want you guys to watch the video for the starter. Would you recommend replacing the whole starter motor or just the solenoid?

http://s113.photobucket.com/user/dj_fli ... a.mp4.html

[Greg S]

Starter works. What makes you think there is something wrong with it?

The starter motor starts to spin quickly, the starter gear is on a shaft and doesn't start turning as quickly so it is propelled down the shaft on some curved slots, against a small spring. This gear is thrown down the shaft and into engagement with the ring gear on the flywheel forcing it to start turning. As long as there is lots of friction induced by a high load between the two gears, the starter motor gear is stuck down the shaft and engaged, turning the motor over. As soon (let me say that again) As Soon, as there is relief of that load between the gears, the little spring pushes the small gear back up the shaft and out of engagement with the ring gear. As soon as your engine fires, even once, it picks up enough speed to relieve that load and your starter disengages. That is EXACTLY what your video shows.

It is possible the shaft is gummed up or slightly corroded so the starter gear doesn't go far enough down the shaft so doesn't engage by much or it's possible a poor connection isn't allowing enough power to the starter to get good power and speed to keep load on the flywheel. (I doubt that one.)

A solenoid is an electrical switch. You are getting power to the starter so nothing wrong with the solenoid.

Your engine fires once and quits. The white fumes coming back out the air cleaner is fuel rich air that has started to fill a cylinder on the intake stroke but the engine stopped part way through the process (or backed up a little) and pushed it back out the carb. It might have started to burn but not entirely. Sometimes you get a huge bang and flame like that. If your timing is too far advanced, it could be firing too soon Before Top Dead Centre (BTDC) and actually forcing the piston down BTDC so it's backing up a bit. If it was turning faster, the inertia would keep it turning the right way. That is why there is a heavy flywheel, to help retain inertia between power strokes. Try setting your timing a bit closer to TDC then try it.

[flipstah]

If your timing is too far advanced, it could be firing too soon Before Top Dead Centre (BTDC) and actually forcing the piston down BTDC so it's backing up a bit. If it was turning faster, the inertia would keep it turning the right way. That is why there is a heavy flywheel, to help retain inertia between power strokes. Try setting your timing a bit closer to TDC then try it.

Thanks for this tidbit, Greg. I thought that since the starter is going then stops but the engine didn't start, that would be the case but from what you're telling me, it's the carb. Again.

It always leads back to the carb.

[Greg S]

No! I didn't say it was the carb. I said it is likely your timing. That's your ignition timing. Distributor "times" the spark to fire at just the right moment just about the time you are at maximum compression with a cylinder filled with the proper amount of air/fuel mix. The only thing it might have to do with the carb at this point is too much gasoline from the accelerator pump hammering away like a sewing machine.

[Dave_F]

On my 2.25 once I changed from standard points to an electronic system (Petronix)...never again had issues with the distributor or timing issues...one of the best investments I ever made for the old Series 3.

[RobTheGob]

Okay, so ignore my dad pumping the accelerator like a mad man haha.

Yikes - all that pumping is dumping a *ton* of fuel into the carb!! After that - it would be cranky starting even if everything else was A-OK...

I'd likely be doing the opposite - trying to get some of the fuel out of the carb throat.

[RobTheGob]

I'd likely be doing the opposite - trying to get some of the fuel out of the carb throat.

And by that I mean: choke open and pedal to the floor and hold it there.

WAY less pumping! There is a lot of fuel pedal pumping in your videos...

Are you sure you are adjusting the idle speed screw in video #2? Keep in mind there is a idle mixture screw as well (there could be two. Some of those dual throat carbs have two idle circuits) and it almost appears to me that you may be turning that...

[flipstah]

I'd likely be doing the opposite - trying to get some of the fuel out of the carb throat.

And by that I mean: choke open and pedal to the floor and hold it there.

WAY less pumping! There is a lot of fuel pedal pumping in your videos...

Are you sure you are adjusting the idle speed screw in video #2? Keep in mind there is a idle mixture screw as well (there could be two. Some of those dual throat carbs have two idle circuits) and it almost appears to me that you may be turning that...

That actually made starting easier. Thanks for that.

There are two but my father said that one is for idle and the other is for the air. So it was -12c and Garth did start but did not like the cold weather.

The fuel line and fuel pump WILL be replaced/fixed when my parts guy is back on holidays and weather is nice enough for us to go under.

Now, would you say the following situation is in relation to the fuel line or something else:

- Car starts and the choke is open (meaning the choke isn't pulled all the way in the cabin but it's pushed all the way in).
- Idling was just adjusted to a somewhat stable RPM (engine wasn't violently rumbling nor sounds dying)
- Accelerator is gradually depressed; RPM rises and sounds high with the accelerator fully depressed
- Accelerator is released; RPM idling rises and falls randomly (sounds like a roller coaster ride)
- Accelerator is quickly depressed; carb makes choking noises and dies

On the road:
- In neutral, RPM follows the accelerator (full throttle = high RPM)
- In 1st gear, high range, the accelerator is fully depressed (pedal to the metal) but RPM doesn't follow suit. It sputters along and there's no power. You can hear the RPM gradually increase but no power; same in 2nd and 3rd.
- I thought it was the clutch but my dad said that if it was, the engine RPM would be high, matching the accelerator, and there'd be no power.

[red90]

Sounds like your mixture is off.

Have you checked the timing, and that vacuum and centrifugal advance are working?

Have you adjusted the idle mixture?

[flipstah]

Sounds like your mixture is off.

Have you checked the timing, and that vacuum and centrifugal advance are working?

I have no idea how to do that. Do you have a typical walkthrough for this?