Hi Everyone.
I'm wondering what everyone out there with a 2.5 NA diesel is running for an alternator.
After the electrical fire I had, caused by the alternator, the bearings have started feeling rough and I think it's on it's way out. I have a line on an 85amp Land Rover replacement from the UK but I thought I'd poll this group first. What have you had success with, and what hasn't been worth it?
Thanks.
2.5NA Alternator
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Bill E.
- Landy Man
- Posts: 933
- Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2004 12:30 pm
- Location: Tsawwassen BC
Hey whistler110, I don't know alot about alternators but I know enough that the lucas unit that usually appears on the 2.5 natural diesel sucks. I went through on original and two rebuilds before swapping over to a GM Delco 75 amp. My 200 TDI came with a Marelli (sp) so I decided to give it a chance but I have my trusty Delco handy for the first sign of insubordination. Colin's auto electric built me the delco. He is located on Victoria Drive in Vancouver.
Bill
Bill
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DaveB
- Defender of the World
- Posts: 1749
- Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2004 7:45 pm
- Location: Vernon, BC
I got a Delco for mine as well. 75 amp. The rebuilder suggested 2 items worth noting...
Make sure you get the 2 pulley model, so its easy to adapt to pretty much any application, and...
Make sure its the single-wire self-exciting unit. You just plug the single wire in to your battery positive and you're done. Alway like the idea of self-exciting. Hmmm...
Dave
Make sure you get the 2 pulley model, so its easy to adapt to pretty much any application, and...
Make sure its the single-wire self-exciting unit. You just plug the single wire in to your battery positive and you're done. Alway like the idea of self-exciting. Hmmm...
Dave
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Whistler110
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Bill E.
- Landy Man
- Posts: 933
- Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2004 12:30 pm
- Location: Tsawwassen BC
Hi Whistler 110, regarding the "bolt-in" aspect of the delco I used, the answer is yes, although I had to add more adjustment to the slide adjusting bar because of the extra diameter of the Delco casing. Delco internals can be built into many style casings by a competent shop, Colin's auto electric used a once popular Dixie case that was used to replace some Japanese alternators.
Bill
Bill
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Whistler110
I was thinking about using a Bosch, but after hearing from everyone and doing some more research, I'll be going with an AC Delco.
I found that the options with the AC/Delco are endless. There is one supplier in the States that I'm going to talk to first though. They build heavier duty alternators using the different casings and adding an extra rectifier to increase reliability. They have models up to 250 amps between $100 and $300 USD depending on what case and output. I like what I read on their site because they are conserned about heat build up and reliability. Before I make any decisions though I have to find out what diameters the different body's are to see what will fit. They also have pulleys, adapting mounts and wiring kits if needed.
I found that the options with the AC/Delco are endless. There is one supplier in the States that I'm going to talk to first though. They build heavier duty alternators using the different casings and adding an extra rectifier to increase reliability. They have models up to 250 amps between $100 and $300 USD depending on what case and output. I like what I read on their site because they are conserned about heat build up and reliability. Before I make any decisions though I have to find out what diameters the different body's are to see what will fit. They also have pulleys, adapting mounts and wiring kits if needed.
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rstl99
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Whistler110
Sure will.
I'm just waiting for pay day and the in-laws to go home.
This is the web site for the upgraded alternators.
www.alternatorparts.com
I'm just waiting for pay day and the in-laws to go home.
This is the web site for the upgraded alternators.
www.alternatorparts.com
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Bill E.
- Landy Man
- Posts: 933
- Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2004 12:30 pm
- Location: Tsawwassen BC
Hey whistler 110, Just a heads up about big power alternators, they also have big resistance issues with single v-belt setups. If you feel you need big juice then I would certainly look into a double pulley drive to lengthen both belt and bearing life. Incidently I had mine built for less than $130 Canadian, taxes in.
Bill
Bill
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Whistler110
I thought I'd throw in an update. I haven't gotten a new alternator yet, it's been busy lately and I may have to take a quicker route as mine is getting worse.
I've emailed the above company twice with no response, so I guess I won't be dealing with them.
After doing some extensive internet research I have found there are 4 alternators that can be made to fit.
The 10-SI is the old AC Delco and what you find mentioned for most Series truck conversions. This is a cheap old alternator not worth using.
12-SI is slightly newer but fits exactly the same as the 10-SI. the 12-SI is a big improvement, cools better and looks to be reliable up to 100amps.
CS-130/130D, a new type for Delco that can be had in high amperage outputs but it is about the same size as a 12-SI and will fit the same mounts. This alternator had some early problems with heat dissapation and the rear bearing, there is a kit called the Iceberg that remedies these problems. I found many upgrades using this alternator in the 130amp range.
CS-144 This is the big boy that most people are using for high outputs. It is larger than the others and came stock in 120 or 140 amps. These are being built by after market companies up to 250 amps and I found ambulance suppliers using it in 190 amps.
The CS-144 is the one I'd like to use but it could be a tight fit with the bracket that holds the fan cowling, not a problem when I install an electric fan, and I will need a longer belt. The main reason I like this alternator is that being larger it will deal with the heat easier, will produce higher amperage at lower RPM and is in common use.
If I can go with the CS-144 I haven't decided if I'll go for 120 or 140 amps but I don't see any point in more unless I'm going to run an on board welder, Ha Ha Ha like I have the money for that.
I've emailed the above company twice with no response, so I guess I won't be dealing with them.
After doing some extensive internet research I have found there are 4 alternators that can be made to fit.
The 10-SI is the old AC Delco and what you find mentioned for most Series truck conversions. This is a cheap old alternator not worth using.
12-SI is slightly newer but fits exactly the same as the 10-SI. the 12-SI is a big improvement, cools better and looks to be reliable up to 100amps.
CS-130/130D, a new type for Delco that can be had in high amperage outputs but it is about the same size as a 12-SI and will fit the same mounts. This alternator had some early problems with heat dissapation and the rear bearing, there is a kit called the Iceberg that remedies these problems. I found many upgrades using this alternator in the 130amp range.
CS-144 This is the big boy that most people are using for high outputs. It is larger than the others and came stock in 120 or 140 amps. These are being built by after market companies up to 250 amps and I found ambulance suppliers using it in 190 amps.
The CS-144 is the one I'd like to use but it could be a tight fit with the bracket that holds the fan cowling, not a problem when I install an electric fan, and I will need a longer belt. The main reason I like this alternator is that being larger it will deal with the heat easier, will produce higher amperage at lower RPM and is in common use.
If I can go with the CS-144 I haven't decided if I'll go for 120 or 140 amps but I don't see any point in more unless I'm going to run an on board welder, Ha Ha Ha like I have the money for that.
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Boppic
nice thoughts....but might tax the usable HP of the small dieselWhistler110 wrote: The CS-144 is the one I'd like to use but it could be a tight fit with the bracket that holds the fan cowling, not a problem when I install an electric fan, and I will need a longer belt. The main reason I like this alternator is that being larger it will deal with the heat easier, will produce higher amperage at lower RPM and is in common use.
If I can go with the CS-144 I haven't decided if I'll go for 120 or 140 amps but I don't see any point in more unless I'm going to run an on board welder, Ha Ha Ha like I have the money for that.
bob
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Whistler110
As I'm learning as I go, that is something I was wondering about. How much power do you think you would lose going from 65amp to 85amp or 140amp.
Another option I've been looking at but would require more work/money is to run a smaller (75amp) alternator in the stock position and then install a second larger one to handle a second auxhilary battery. The second one could be put on a clutch pulley like what's used on air conditioning pumps so would only be on when needed. I've read about this type of set up on Defenders in the UK.
I was trying to keep this simple so figured I'd go with one alternator and run the second battery with an isolator.
Another option I've been looking at but would require more work/money is to run a smaller (75amp) alternator in the stock position and then install a second larger one to handle a second auxhilary battery. The second one could be put on a clutch pulley like what's used on air conditioning pumps so would only be on when needed. I've read about this type of set up on Defenders in the UK.
I was trying to keep this simple so figured I'd go with one alternator and run the second battery with an isolator.
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Whistler110
I love the web, soo much info to be had. I found this power loss chart for alternators.
http://www.performanceunlimited.com/doc ... rfact.html
Going from my 65amp to a 120amp is about 1.5Hp loss. On my little engine that will probably be felt but I wonder how much Hp I will gain by losing the mechanical fan.
My understanding is that the power loss relates to the alternator draw at that moment. So if the electrical system is not drawing many amps the Hp loss would be lower as well.
Please correct me if I'm wrong. Electrics have never been my strong point.
http://www.performanceunlimited.com/doc ... rfact.html
Going from my 65amp to a 120amp is about 1.5Hp loss. On my little engine that will probably be felt but I wonder how much Hp I will gain by losing the mechanical fan.
My understanding is that the power loss relates to the alternator draw at that moment. So if the electrical system is not drawing many amps the Hp loss would be lower as well.
Please correct me if I'm wrong. Electrics have never been my strong point.
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red90
- Defender of the World
- Posts: 1509
- Joined: Mon Mar 08, 2004 7:19 pm
- Location: Calgary
Yes, the power loss is only when it is using the electricity. So a larger alternator will not use more power unless you add more stuff to drain the power.
Make sure you go with larger wiring from the alternator if you get a larger one. The stock wires are VERY small.
Assuming you have a viscous unit on your cooling fan, it will not use much power until needed.
Make sure you go with larger wiring from the alternator if you get a larger one. The stock wires are VERY small.
Assuming you have a viscous unit on your cooling fan, it will not use much power until needed.
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rstl99
I'm following this post with interest, also driving a 2.5n/a diesel engine where every HP is precious.
My knowledge of engine electrics is also not as good as I'd like it. About this power loss: whenever I've had an alternator on the bench, it seems to turn rather freely, so I don't understand why under load the alternator robs the engine of HP. TO me, it should take the same amount of power to turn that wheel using the belt, whether there is load or not. Is there a certain resistance that forms in the alternator under load, that then requires more power to turn it?
My knowledge of engine electrics is also not as good as I'd like it. About this power loss: whenever I've had an alternator on the bench, it seems to turn rather freely, so I don't understand why under load the alternator robs the engine of HP. TO me, it should take the same amount of power to turn that wheel using the belt, whether there is load or not. Is there a certain resistance that forms in the alternator under load, that then requires more power to turn it?
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Boppic
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rstl99
Ah, that explains it. Basic laws of electricity I suppose, voltage, amperage, magnetism, resistance. Good, learned something today, thanks! One conclusion from all this is that if one is living with a low HP engine, make sure you have a good battery that takes and keeps a good charge! I put an Optima-equivalent battery in my 110 as soon as I got it, so I've got as good a battery as I can in it. I am toying with the idea of adding a second battery, split charge relay, to feed accessories, hence the possible need for higher amp alternator, but charging both batteries would be an added draw on the alternator/engine....
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Whistler110
When the voltage in the system decreases due to draw the voltage regulater in the alternator increases the magnetic field strength to create a larger output and bring the system back to 14.2 volts (with an AC Delco). Without the magnetic field the alternator will just spin freely.
I have been doing as much reading as possible and have found some realy good web sites.
My alternator gave up the ghost a few days ago and I've been charging the battery every night to go to work so the plan had to change. I have ordered an AC Delco three wire 12SI 94 amp alternator with the dual pulley.
I chose this alternator because I know it will fit, it's reliable and it is the most common alternator in North America. I did not go with a one-wire because after reading up on it the one wire is not an efficient alternator for anything other than tractors and generators. I will be using the three wire's remote voltage sensing to improve the voltage delivery to the juction at the solonoid until I can put a proper junction on the bulkhead. Once I have this junction in it will be easier to install headlight relays and other accerssories.
I should be getting it today and installing it so I will let you know how it goes.
There are many good web sites for finding this info but I found www.madelectric.com worth going over, thier info was the same as AC Delco's but not as technical.
I have been doing as much reading as possible and have found some realy good web sites.
My alternator gave up the ghost a few days ago and I've been charging the battery every night to go to work so the plan had to change. I have ordered an AC Delco three wire 12SI 94 amp alternator with the dual pulley.
I chose this alternator because I know it will fit, it's reliable and it is the most common alternator in North America. I did not go with a one-wire because after reading up on it the one wire is not an efficient alternator for anything other than tractors and generators. I will be using the three wire's remote voltage sensing to improve the voltage delivery to the juction at the solonoid until I can put a proper junction on the bulkhead. Once I have this junction in it will be easier to install headlight relays and other accerssories.
I should be getting it today and installing it so I will let you know how it goes.
There are many good web sites for finding this info but I found www.madelectric.com worth going over, thier info was the same as AC Delco's but not as technical.
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rstl99
Glad to benefit from your research Mike, thanks. Indeed, please let us know how you make out with that Delco double pulley alternator. Although my Lucas alt works fine and I've ordered replacement brushes for it, I'd probably feel more comfortable heading out for a long trip in N-A with something like a Delco in there, which can be fixed/replaced anywhere. US or Canadian source? How costly?
Cheers.
Cheers.
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Whistler110
It's in. I have a charging sytem again and I was able to go driving today.
The fit wasn't bad, I had to drill out the bracket to fit the larger bolt of the AC Delco, put in two washers to snug up the fit of the alternator in the bracket and then spaced the bracket 2 mm out from the engine block to center the outer alternator pulley with the crank pulley.
I had to go to a longer alternator belt and had to go with a 11mm belt instead of 10mm as stock, they didn't have a 10mm that fit in length. The belt tensioning bracket had to be moved so I made a 90 deg piece of metal to hold it and bolt onto one of the fan cowling bolts, works perfect and it's easier to get to.
Wiring was simple but I have to go back and finish it. I didn't have time to upgrade the charging wires in the harness or install a new junction terminal, so I wired the alternator up as a one-wire for now and will go back and re-wire in the next few weeks.
Overall I'm very happy with the alternator and it's output but I don't like the finished product yet. I have now ordered a alternator bracket adapter that I think I can make fit, it should put the alternator further forward and hold the alternator better. I also think I ordered the wrong pulley, I made sure I had the double pulley and 2 1/2" diameter but I'm not sure it's the right width. The belt fits OK but is quite low in the groove.
So far my costs have been $148 for the alternator and harness plug from Brighouse in Richmond, $21 for shipping overnight to Pemberton,$19 for a fan belt and then some misc. bolts and washers. The wiring that I want to do will cost some more but I haven't tallied it up yet. This job took me the day but that included installing a new 300TDI starter and two 2km walks to the auto parts store.
I'll let you know how the wiring and bracket adapters go.
The fit wasn't bad, I had to drill out the bracket to fit the larger bolt of the AC Delco, put in two washers to snug up the fit of the alternator in the bracket and then spaced the bracket 2 mm out from the engine block to center the outer alternator pulley with the crank pulley.
I had to go to a longer alternator belt and had to go with a 11mm belt instead of 10mm as stock, they didn't have a 10mm that fit in length. The belt tensioning bracket had to be moved so I made a 90 deg piece of metal to hold it and bolt onto one of the fan cowling bolts, works perfect and it's easier to get to.
Wiring was simple but I have to go back and finish it. I didn't have time to upgrade the charging wires in the harness or install a new junction terminal, so I wired the alternator up as a one-wire for now and will go back and re-wire in the next few weeks.
Overall I'm very happy with the alternator and it's output but I don't like the finished product yet. I have now ordered a alternator bracket adapter that I think I can make fit, it should put the alternator further forward and hold the alternator better. I also think I ordered the wrong pulley, I made sure I had the double pulley and 2 1/2" diameter but I'm not sure it's the right width. The belt fits OK but is quite low in the groove.
So far my costs have been $148 for the alternator and harness plug from Brighouse in Richmond, $21 for shipping overnight to Pemberton,$19 for a fan belt and then some misc. bolts and washers. The wiring that I want to do will cost some more but I haven't tallied it up yet. This job took me the day but that included installing a new 300TDI starter and two 2km walks to the auto parts store.
I'll let you know how the wiring and bracket adapters go.