Another good read is the ' Alcan and Canol .. a pictorial history of 2 great world war 11 construction projects ' by Stan Cohen . Last printing was March 1998 . It's an excellent representation of what they endured in constructing this Canadian Oil pipeline / road building from Norman Wells , Northwest Territories to Whitehorse , Yukon . The book [ 262 pages ] was published by ' Pictorial Histories Publishing Co. , Inc. ' out of Missoula , MT .
I just happen to pick up this book 2 weeks ago by chance in the BC historical section in Books and Co. here in PG .
Gerry B
Prince George
Canol Road 2009
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HeadDamage
- Horn Blower
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So are we thinking making a reconnaissance attempt or a full on hard core death before dishonor sort of epic D-day affair?
If the former I can see doing it late this summer/early fall… the latter would likely need more prep.
Speaking of prep how would we deal with fuel? Trailer/carry as much at possible and leave fuel drops along the way for the return trip? 700+ km of off road driving plus the hwy to and from the trail head will take a bit.
The river crossings don’t look too bad based on the hiking reports I’ve read but the road sounds to be much less of a road than some might be thinking.
If the former I can see doing it late this summer/early fall… the latter would likely need more prep.
Speaking of prep how would we deal with fuel? Trailer/carry as much at possible and leave fuel drops along the way for the return trip? 700+ km of off road driving plus the hwy to and from the trail head will take a bit.
The river crossings don’t look too bad based on the hiking reports I’ve read but the road sounds to be much less of a road than some might be thinking.
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Dave_F
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I've dropped a email to a fellow who runs a hunting lodge/guide service on the road, who also has a small plane.
I suspect that this fellow knows more about the area and road than anyone else, so hopefully he responds back. This should give us concrete information regarding the road(?)/trail. I've explained to him who we are and what we are thinking of doing, and asked for details as far as the feasibility of our venture. Also if the road is impassable, how far could we get?
Stay tuned for the response.
I suspect that this fellow knows more about the area and road than anyone else, so hopefully he responds back. This should give us concrete information regarding the road(?)/trail. I've explained to him who we are and what we are thinking of doing, and asked for details as far as the feasibility of our venture. Also if the road is impassable, how far could we get?
Stay tuned for the response.
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Doc Tari
Andrew,
First, let me apologize for the length of my reply ahead of time...
Certainly, we won't be foolish about pushing ahead at any cost. I'd like to return home safely with my Rover in one piece, same as you. However, if we go to the trouble of going all the way there, we should try to get as far as we reasonably can. It's a long drive and I prefer not to turn tail at the first challenging obstacle. Therefore, we should have a plan on how to deal with what we're likely to encounter.
I've read several accounts of washouts as well and agree that one could end our journey rather quickly. We need to gather info from everywhere we can, however one thing to keep in mind is that the author plays a big role in the relevance of the account. A hiker or motocyclist has a different view on things than the driver of a 4x4. For example, water crossings are particularly challenging to a moto, maybe less so to a hiker. How many times have people with no off road experience told you that something was impassable... Also, many of the washouts I've read about that were reported by hikers, weren't actually on the Canol Road. They were on a mountainside trail, used by hikers to avoid walking in rocky streams, shorten distance, or gain altitude for the great view. We may not actually follow their path, rather remain in the valley along the original route. One of the challenges will likely be just finding the route.
I'm more concerned about the water crossings than the washouts. Rocks and boulders can be avoided or moved with enough hands, shovels, winches, etc., and if not, we would have no option but to find an alternate route or turn around. However, nearly all accounts I've read talk about deep water at some point. Since we can nearly count on having to cross it, we should plan to. With a bit of ingenuity, I think we could overcome this.
Over the weekend I plotted the route out on my GPS software. I don't recall the actual numbers but the distance from the last fuel stop in Ross River to the end of the trail, and back, is like twice the range of my 110 (300Tdi/80L tank) so fuel will certainly need to be addressed. These logistics can be resolved but I think we should start out with a list of participants so we can determine if we've even got a group willing to have a go.
If it was easy, it would already have been done... So, ARE YOU IN?
Just my 2 cents.
First, let me apologize for the length of my reply ahead of time...
Certainly, we won't be foolish about pushing ahead at any cost. I'd like to return home safely with my Rover in one piece, same as you. However, if we go to the trouble of going all the way there, we should try to get as far as we reasonably can. It's a long drive and I prefer not to turn tail at the first challenging obstacle. Therefore, we should have a plan on how to deal with what we're likely to encounter.
I've read several accounts of washouts as well and agree that one could end our journey rather quickly. We need to gather info from everywhere we can, however one thing to keep in mind is that the author plays a big role in the relevance of the account. A hiker or motocyclist has a different view on things than the driver of a 4x4. For example, water crossings are particularly challenging to a moto, maybe less so to a hiker. How many times have people with no off road experience told you that something was impassable... Also, many of the washouts I've read about that were reported by hikers, weren't actually on the Canol Road. They were on a mountainside trail, used by hikers to avoid walking in rocky streams, shorten distance, or gain altitude for the great view. We may not actually follow their path, rather remain in the valley along the original route. One of the challenges will likely be just finding the route.
I'm more concerned about the water crossings than the washouts. Rocks and boulders can be avoided or moved with enough hands, shovels, winches, etc., and if not, we would have no option but to find an alternate route or turn around. However, nearly all accounts I've read talk about deep water at some point. Since we can nearly count on having to cross it, we should plan to. With a bit of ingenuity, I think we could overcome this.
Over the weekend I plotted the route out on my GPS software. I don't recall the actual numbers but the distance from the last fuel stop in Ross River to the end of the trail, and back, is like twice the range of my 110 (300Tdi/80L tank) so fuel will certainly need to be addressed. These logistics can be resolved but I think we should start out with a list of participants so we can determine if we've even got a group willing to have a go.
If it was easy, it would already have been done... So, ARE YOU IN?
Just my 2 cents.
Last edited by Doc Tari on Sun Jun 28, 2009 7:37 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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HeadDamage
- Horn Blower
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I'm very interested but I'd have to see how things go this year for taking the time and such... I've done the trip up that way to Inuvik and have wanted to do the Canol since that time. I guess I better get on putting the 200tdi together and getting it into the 90 ;)
I was thinking of bringing a trailer full of jerry cans or fuel drums and making a fuel cache near the trail head and perhaps a couple more along the way. So that we know that we can get back out.
Synthetic winch lines, at least some lenghts would be useful for river crossings so that one man can carry/swim one across.
I was thinking of bringing a trailer full of jerry cans or fuel drums and making a fuel cache near the trail head and perhaps a couple more along the way. So that we know that we can get back out.
Synthetic winch lines, at least some lenghts would be useful for river crossings so that one man can carry/swim one across.
Last edited by HeadDamage on Mon Jan 26, 2009 8:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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red90
- Defender of the World
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From what I've read, the Twitya river crossing is the big crossing concern. They say it is not walkable and I can guarantee you can walk worse than you can drive (in a Rover anyway). A lot will depend on the water levels at the time.
The next problem is the Dodo canyon. They claim that it is difficult hiking due to boulders. From what I see, you can not get around it. It is narrow and deep. In my experience as a hiker, that sounds undriveable, regardless. Keep in mind that these are serious and advanced hikers, not any Joe Blow that made the trail reports.
Being reasonable, I suspect one would be very happy to make it to the Twitya river, 162 km from the border. That is close to the length of the Mackenzie trail (one way) and twice as far as the motorcyclist made.
Maybe in the end, the easiest is to set a time limit. If we have two weeks, we turn back after one.
Ross river (I assume the closest fuel) is 250 km from the border.
I'll say I'm a maybe at this time. It will be interesting to see the viewpoint of the lodge owner.
The next problem is the Dodo canyon. They claim that it is difficult hiking due to boulders. From what I see, you can not get around it. It is narrow and deep. In my experience as a hiker, that sounds undriveable, regardless. Keep in mind that these are serious and advanced hikers, not any Joe Blow that made the trail reports.
Being reasonable, I suspect one would be very happy to make it to the Twitya river, 162 km from the border. That is close to the length of the Mackenzie trail (one way) and twice as far as the motorcyclist made.
Maybe in the end, the easiest is to set a time limit. If we have two weeks, we turn back after one.
Ross river (I assume the closest fuel) is 250 km from the border.
I'll say I'm a maybe at this time. It will be interesting to see the viewpoint of the lodge owner.
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DaveB
- Defender of the World
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- Location: Vernon, BC
Red90, I assume the Dodo Canyon is the one that Trout Creek runs in. One of the books outlines this as one of the toughest areas to hike as well.
JD, thanks for the links to the amphibious vehicles. The recent Cape to Cape crew certainly made floating vehicles look easy, too!
OK, along the line of slightly crazy links, I found this one today for a rather interesting Canadian-made amphibian, and my local machine shop just happens to have one for sale. It's called a Penguin!
http://www.pbase.com/crocodile/image/73914204
Kind of cute, but not very practical for our needs.
cheers, Dave
JD, thanks for the links to the amphibious vehicles. The recent Cape to Cape crew certainly made floating vehicles look easy, too!
OK, along the line of slightly crazy links, I found this one today for a rather interesting Canadian-made amphibian, and my local machine shop just happens to have one for sale. It's called a Penguin!
http://www.pbase.com/crocodile/image/73914204
Kind of cute, but not very practical for our needs.
cheers, Dave
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red90
- Defender of the World
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- Location: Calgary
No, Dodo Creek, further along.Dave wrote:Red90, I assume the Dodo Canyon is the one that Trout Creek runs in.
You guys that have read the book obviously know more.An extraordinarily rocky canyon- hikers will be forced to scramble over many large boulders. Frequent washouts can make the trail hard to find.
I was just looking at the motorcycle pictures. They look easy enough. http://www.motorcycleexplorer.com/nwt/nwtlist.html Mmmm, they sure make it look inviting!! They were stopped at the Ekwi river, which looks simple enough for us.
Was this trip report linked earlier? http://canoltrail.tripod.com/much.htm
:PThe river was about 15' deep here.
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JD
Trekskreig
At the risk of gassing off….
With a proposed limit of 10 trail trucks and questions of how enough fuel (and presumably food) and also perhaps importantly recovery might be handled, it might be suggested that the expedition be divided into two parts:
Packet 1: full trek section of 10 trail ready trucks. This packet will compose of those vehicles who's crew and equipment are prepared to go as far as the trail will allow; and
Packet 2: logistics section (LS). The LS may consist of two main groups of trucks that either don't wish to go on the main trek, don't have time or are on the waiting list. LS Group a) are those that drop fuel, food and spare parts to an advanced trail location. This group may initially travel with Packet 1 but will lag back at a determined point providing rear safety link via radio and a fuel/food replenishment. This group may also be equipped with a heavy recovery truck (Unimog?) if avail. An aid station may be included. LS Group b) would be small and shuttle supplies, people and replacement parts to the replenishment point from nearest civilisation.
A rear Laager would be a fun thing to do all on its own. Those of us who are industrial first aiders, HAM operators and welders might have a lot of fun back there. While rental satelite phones take a lot of the challenge out of safety communications it would still be a good HAM op.
Do Sasquatch drink beer?
JD
With a proposed limit of 10 trail trucks and questions of how enough fuel (and presumably food) and also perhaps importantly recovery might be handled, it might be suggested that the expedition be divided into two parts:
Packet 1: full trek section of 10 trail ready trucks. This packet will compose of those vehicles who's crew and equipment are prepared to go as far as the trail will allow; and
Packet 2: logistics section (LS). The LS may consist of two main groups of trucks that either don't wish to go on the main trek, don't have time or are on the waiting list. LS Group a) are those that drop fuel, food and spare parts to an advanced trail location. This group may initially travel with Packet 1 but will lag back at a determined point providing rear safety link via radio and a fuel/food replenishment. This group may also be equipped with a heavy recovery truck (Unimog?) if avail. An aid station may be included. LS Group b) would be small and shuttle supplies, people and replacement parts to the replenishment point from nearest civilisation.
A rear Laager would be a fun thing to do all on its own. Those of us who are industrial first aiders, HAM operators and welders might have a lot of fun back there. While rental satelite phones take a lot of the challenge out of safety communications it would still be a good HAM op.
Do Sasquatch drink beer?
JD
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Bermuda110
Hello All,
I have been following this post with great interest. Pete could you please put me on the list to be one of the 10 vehicles to participate in this adventure. I have a Defender 110.
Thanks,
Cory
Ps. might I suggest that we adopt this as our event logo..........
http://i632.photobucket.com/albums/uu47 ... WT2009.jpg
I have been following this post with great interest. Pete could you please put me on the list to be one of the 10 vehicles to participate in this adventure. I have a Defender 110.
Thanks,
Cory
Ps. might I suggest that we adopt this as our event logo..........
http://i632.photobucket.com/albums/uu47 ... WT2009.jpg
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Doc Tari
Hi Cory,
Glad to hear you'll be joining us. Great job on the logo, I think we need to consider event shirts.
Given the distances and lack of services, we need to figure out how we'll handle fuel. What engine does your 110 have and what sort of consumption or range does it have?
Thanks,
Pete
Glad to hear you'll be joining us. Great job on the logo, I think we need to consider event shirts.
Given the distances and lack of services, we need to figure out how we'll handle fuel. What engine does your 110 have and what sort of consumption or range does it have?
Thanks,
Pete
Last edited by Doc Tari on Tue Jan 27, 2009 10:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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HeadDamage
- Horn Blower
- Posts: 574
- Joined: Thu Mar 18, 2004 3:21 pm
- Location: Calgary
I think that we need to come up with a required equipment list for this one just so that people know what they are getting into and what they will need to bring. We also need dates, I can't commit till I know the dates to try and book off of work.
As far as my gear goes I'd be using my 90 which currently has a 2.5na diesel but should have a 200tdi in it by June/July. I have a 9000lb warn winch (might fit my spare 8000lbs warn as a rear winch if we think that is needed). Rear ARB locker, two fuel tanks for 100L on board fuel. Tanks, axles, and stearing gear are all heavily skid plated. I also have a roll cage, not that I'm planning on ever using it. For radio I just have a CB at this time.
I normally carry a shovel, pick, axle, chainsaw, assorted recovery straps, shackles, pully blocks, etc...
I am considering fitting a heavy duty front diff and half shafts as well and will likely tow a sanky based trialer at least as far as the trail head for extra fuel and such.
As far as my gear goes I'd be using my 90 which currently has a 2.5na diesel but should have a 200tdi in it by June/July. I have a 9000lb warn winch (might fit my spare 8000lbs warn as a rear winch if we think that is needed). Rear ARB locker, two fuel tanks for 100L on board fuel. Tanks, axles, and stearing gear are all heavily skid plated. I also have a roll cage, not that I'm planning on ever using it. For radio I just have a CB at this time.
I normally carry a shovel, pick, axle, chainsaw, assorted recovery straps, shackles, pully blocks, etc...
I am considering fitting a heavy duty front diff and half shafts as well and will likely tow a sanky based trialer at least as far as the trail head for extra fuel and such.
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red90
- Defender of the World
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- Location: Calgary
I'm a maybe at this time. I would need to see approximate dates and length of the trip. I'm not sure if using three weeks of vacation is possible as I still need to spend some vacation time with my wife and she would not go on this type of trip. It is hard to pass up as this is very tempting.Doc Tari wrote:Red90, does this mean that you're planning to join us?
Pete
There is also the vehicle prep. I have a 90 with the stock tank and, IMO, that is not possible. There is inadeqaute room for the required fuel. But this depends on your goals, which need to be set beforehand. I think adding a second tank would be the only way to make sense.
For a TDI
500 km on gravel roads = 55 liter allowance.
700 km+ off road = 140 liter allowance
So say 195 liters. With the stock tank, 6-7 jerry cans. Too much to carry in a 90 with all the required gear for this type of trip.
I really can not see how someone with a petrol could consider this without a lot of tankage.
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DaveB
- Defender of the World
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- Location: Vernon, BC
I agree, in 2005 when I first drove my 88 through Mackenzie Trail it was still a 2.25 gas, and I used just over twice the fuel of the TDIs.red90 wrote:I really can not see how someone with a petrol could consider this without a lot of tankage.
So using your calculations — and I don't think they're far off — for this trip a gas truck would require 15+ jerry cans of fuel, at roughly 50 pounds apiece it would add 750 pounds to the weight without any of the other gear.
Dave B.
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Dave_F
- Washed Up
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HeadDamage
- Horn Blower
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HeadDamage
- Horn Blower
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These guy look to be able to ship a Land Rover to or from Norman Wells for about $900. I'm not sure if they can put it on the west bank of the river or not.
http://www.ntcl.com/index.html
I've sent them an email asking about shipping from the west bank of the river at Norman Wells.
http://www.ntcl.com/index.html
I've sent them an email asking about shipping from the west bank of the river at Norman Wells.
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ANDYD
- Defender of the World
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Trailer of fuel ...
Would it be feasable to bring a Sankey trailer loaded with Gas and diesel to hide just off the trail in a place where it was no longer feasible to pull the trailer any further (when the going gets too rough).
Also it could have other items such as spare parts, oil, bag of dry socks!etc that can be used if needed.
Andy
Also it could have other items such as spare parts, oil, bag of dry socks!etc that can be used if needed.
Andy
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HeadDamage
- Horn Blower
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Re: Trailer of fuel ...
That's what I'm thinking of doing.ANDYD wrote:Would it be feasable to bring a Sankey trailer loaded with Gas and diesel to hide just off the trail in a place where it was no longer feasible to pull the trailer any further (when the going gets too rough).
Also it could have other items such as spare parts, oil, bag of dry socks!etc that can be used if needed.
Andy
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Doc Tari
Last week, I put a call in to the barge company you've posted but have not received a reply yet. I also contacted another, Cooper Barging, and spoke to the owner. Since Wrigley is half the distance to Yellowknife, I took Dave's suggestion and asked about going from Norman Wells to Wrigley. It would be about $550 per truck (no volume discounts), take several days, and we would have to find our own way down to Wrigley, as we can't ride the barge.HeadDamage wrote:These guy look to be able to ship a Land Rover to or from Norman Wells for about $900. I'm not sure if they can put it on the west bank of the river or not.
http://www.ntcl.com/index.html
I've sent them an email asking about shipping from the west bank of the river at Norman Wells.
Another option I considered was contacting a few trucking companies I got from the barge company. Since they are likely loaded on the way up but empty on the way back, we might get a better rate on or in an otherwise empty trailer. We'd still have to find our way down and spend for a motel in Wrigley for several nights. Given that we're not likely to get all the way through, I really don't think this something we need to worry about.
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Doc Tari
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Doc Tari
Fuel is certainly something that needs to be considered. We'll need to take a few trailers along to carry additional reserves and as Andy stated, we can stash them in the bush to avoid dragging them needlessly over the trail.
IMO, you guys are being too conservative with your estimates of the range we'll need. I don't see needing 700km worth of fuel because that implies we go all the way to Norman Wells, and back to MacMillan. If we get to Norman Wells, fuel is available there. More likely, we won't get even close to NW so 600km round trip off road is more realistic. Since we'll top up before leaving the trailers, we should have no problem covering 600km with a few jerry cans on board each truck. This will get us back to the trailers where we can again refuel for the drive back to Ross River.
As for the weight, a jerry can full of diesel is around 40lbs (and gasoline is lighter) so a Sankey should easily handle a full load of fuel cans. Since the trailers will only be loaded for the drive from Ross River to MacMillan, I don't see a weight issue. Kris and Andrew have Sankeys (and Kris has volunteered Mark's if needed) so I think we'll be in good shape for moving fuel but an important item on the equipment list will be enough jerry cans to serve each driver's needs.
IMO, you guys are being too conservative with your estimates of the range we'll need. I don't see needing 700km worth of fuel because that implies we go all the way to Norman Wells, and back to MacMillan. If we get to Norman Wells, fuel is available there. More likely, we won't get even close to NW so 600km round trip off road is more realistic. Since we'll top up before leaving the trailers, we should have no problem covering 600km with a few jerry cans on board each truck. This will get us back to the trailers where we can again refuel for the drive back to Ross River.
As for the weight, a jerry can full of diesel is around 40lbs (and gasoline is lighter) so a Sankey should easily handle a full load of fuel cans. Since the trailers will only be loaded for the drive from Ross River to MacMillan, I don't see a weight issue. Kris and Andrew have Sankeys (and Kris has volunteered Mark's if needed) so I think we'll be in good shape for moving fuel but an important item on the equipment list will be enough jerry cans to serve each driver's needs.
Last edited by Doc Tari on Wed Jan 28, 2009 12:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Dave_F
- Washed Up
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OK so I have done some figuring being the only "gas" guzzler among us.
I have 5 jerry cans 20x5=100L + 65L on board and if I average around 6 to 6.5K per litre that gives me a range of around 1000K. If it's 500K from Ross River and back, that still leaves me another 400-500K worth of fuel for "mucking about".
I just got a full length rack that I can put the Jerry Cans on plus Hi-Lift, extra tires etc...This only adds up to another aprox. 200+ lbs. On gravel roads I should be able to get around 7K per litre, so I think I should be fine. Plus I'm am about to put a new Weber on the truck which should help as well.
I'm on the same page as Pete as I really don't think we'll make it all the way. From everything I've read there are just some impassable portions, washouts on the sides of mountains...potential high river(s), and the canyon doesn't look to promising. Anyway I would go as far as 1/2 of my gas reserve.
Isn't there any other Gas Trucks coming along...ANDY D?
I have 5 jerry cans 20x5=100L + 65L on board and if I average around 6 to 6.5K per litre that gives me a range of around 1000K. If it's 500K from Ross River and back, that still leaves me another 400-500K worth of fuel for "mucking about".
I just got a full length rack that I can put the Jerry Cans on plus Hi-Lift, extra tires etc...This only adds up to another aprox. 200+ lbs. On gravel roads I should be able to get around 7K per litre, so I think I should be fine. Plus I'm am about to put a new Weber on the truck which should help as well.
I'm on the same page as Pete as I really don't think we'll make it all the way. From everything I've read there are just some impassable portions, washouts on the sides of mountains...potential high river(s), and the canyon doesn't look to promising. Anyway I would go as far as 1/2 of my gas reserve.
Isn't there any other Gas Trucks coming along...ANDY D?
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shawn doherty
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