The Rover-Landers of BC

Akkk...that was a terrible way to ask my question, let me try again. Its in High range... and neutral on diff lock... whats the fix?

There is no fix, thats the way it is. If you have a rear wheel drive car, with the rear wheels off the ground, trans in park. If you spin one wheel, the other goes backwards. This is because of the differential action.

Put the CDL in and the rear and front outputs will rotate the same direction. I do agree with other posts, that you do need the do-nut joint.

John Boy wrote:Akkk...that was a terrible way to ask my question, let me try again. Its in High range... and neutral on diff lock... whats the fix?

There is no such thing as "neutral" in diff lock. It is unlocked or locked. When unlocked and you spin one shaft, the other will spin backwards. That is how a differential works.

red90 wrote:You need to have a u joint or the rotoflex at the rear. It can't just be a solid connection.

I'll repeat this in case you missed it. The way it is attached right now will break something very quickly.

Ok.. King Kong... I was not ignoring your comments, I understand the use of the Rotoflex. There is a good reason for the Rotoflex coupling which is to absorb the different drive shocks between the front and rear driveshafts and any differential anomalies between them. Take this away and the shock stresses are directly transferred to the drive train and differentials at both ends, particularly off roading.

I am not building an Off roader, but a race truck. To be used in a rear wheel drive mode, on semi paved surfaces, hence the use of the Discovery 1 drive train. I have a couple of BMW rally cars and the factory uses the Rotoflex style discs on them too. I have on occasion deleted them and used a direct connection with great success, but admittedly, with increased vibration. I mentioned in my post that I was "testing" the setup to see if this idea would be equally successful, and would weld the final yokes "only" if the tests panned out. As it stands now, the shaft seems a bit to long still and "might" need to be shortened. If I'm going to have to shorten it, then I will likely use the Rotoflex because the length of the shaft is simply going to put too much stress on the rear Differential..

As for my use of terms.. I'm a car guy, 4x4's are new to me and so are the terms, so it would be nice if you cut me a little slack. Don't confuse my sense of humour as a lack of knowledge, I have been building my own race cars since I was a kid, and I'm over 50 now. This is my build and if, and only if the tests work out, we might all learn something new.

Tony, thank you for the input but I'm a bit lost in your terms, "but you will need to turn the input sheet to shift it" ...Sheet? "if the CDL is out the forward output from the T-box will turn backwards" ...is CDL the Center Diff lock? and if it is, are you saying put the shifter back on to use the CDL? "Put the CDL in and the rear and front outputs will rotate the same direction" ... Again.. are you saying put the shifter and its associated linkages back on? If you are then is it not possible to just shift the connector in a direction.. the connector being the thing I had my crescent wrench attached too.

"Akkk...that was a terrible way to ask my question, let me try again. Its in High range... and neutral on diff lock... whats the fix?" ...As you can see by my post, I am trying to use the correct terms with a still limited understanding of the 4x4 lingo, as i continue to read other posts in my spare time I will no doubt learn what words to use and where they are appropriate. I went through this with the Mini guys, the Mercedes guys and now with the Porsche guys... makes the use of a message board problematic at times. But thanks all the same for any comments that help in my build, I truly appreciate them.

The sheet should be shaft, damn autocorrect. The CDL, centre diff lock, is only locked or open, no neutral. The Hi-Lo has neutral between the 2 speeds.

John Boy wrote:I was not ignoring your comments, I understand the use of the Rotoflex. There is a good reason for the Rotoflex coupling which is to absorb the different drive shocks between the front and rear driveshafts and any differential anomalies between them. Take this away and the shock stresses are directly transferred to the drive train and differentials at both ends, particularly off roading.

The rotoflex is not just for shock absorption. It acts as a u-joint allowing for angular misalignment as the suspension moves. They way you have it installed, it will tear apart as the axle moves up and down. You need to either install it correctly or replace it with a u-joint.

As to the transfer case. The item you have the crescent wrench on is the shifter than locks the center differential. It has two positions. One is unlocked. In that mode, it is a normal differential with even torque split front and rear. If one flange is not connected, it will spin and no power will go to the other one. In the other position, the differential is locked. The two output shafts are then locked together and spin at the same speed.

"Please stop being insulting." ??? WTF??? This always seems to happen when I post a build on a group site, one person takes what I say out of context and a nose gets bent out of shape.. I asked a question...

"So... now the glitch. I bolted the front shaft in and when moving the frame back and forth, I quickly realised the front shaft turned in the opposite direction to the front diffs rotation. So... the shaft turned clockwise and the yoke on the front diff turned counter clockwise."

Your first response... "You need to have a u joint or the rotoflex at the rear. It can't just be a solid connection." That's not an answer

Your second response.. "You need to have a u joint or the rotoflex at the rear. It can't just be a solid connection." still not an answer.

Your third response... "There is no such thing as "neutral" in diff lock. It is unlocked or locked. When unlocked and you spin one shaft, the other will spin backwards. That is how a differential works." ... I know how a differential works, I just wanted to know how to get the two parts of the Hi/Low and the centre diff lock into the correct positions so that the drive shafts will operate in the correct direction! so again... no answer from you.

Your forth response... "I'll repeat this in case you missed it. The way it is attached right now will break something very quickly." ... yet again, no answer to my question. Tony was trying to answer, you are just making your comments known! So I finally respond to you and "Please stop being insulting. Thanks." ???

We are never going to understand each other, so I think it best if you stop posting comments on my build page please. I promise to show you the same respect and not comment on your page. Thanks

As to lever position. If you are connecting both driveshafts, then you would run with the center diff in the unlock position on the road (this is full time 4WD) and the locked position off road (part time 4WD). If you are only connecting one drive shaft, for wanting to run in rear wheel drive, then the center diff needs to be in the locked position.

The other shifter on the transfer case has three positions (high, neutral and low). The two shifters are separate and do not interact.

Gents!!!!! Be calm. Go to your corners. :P
Unfortunately it is very easy to take offense via the written word when none is meant. Please don't let it escalate. (OK, I'm ready to be burned now... :shock: )

Re Rotoflex and u-joints:

With independent suspension the diff doesn't move and sometimes the driveshaft only has a single flexible joint to accommodate vibration from the engine.

With a solid axle the diff can go up and down, and even rotate slightly (one wheel up, the other down), but the angle of the input shaft in the vertical plane remains constant. This is true for both leaf and coil suspensions

With a driveshaft with a single flex joint at the transmission and solid mounted at the diff, as the suspension moves up and down, the driveshaft will try to rotate the differential upwards to keep the driveshaft & input input shaft aligned. This will destroy either the u-joint at the tranny or the input shaft, bearings, etc. at the diff. It will put a huge amount of torque on the entire rear axle casing and possibly tear/distort mounting tabs, leaf spring centering pins, u-bolts, etc. Also, it will put similar loading to the tranny output shaft. It is a very bad idea to solid mount the driveshaft to the diff.

In 4x4's, we have long travel suspensions. This exacerbates the tranny/diff alignment issues and is why many 4x4 driveshafts have double-carden joints - basically two u-joints bolted together at each end of the driveshaft, to allow greater vertical angle differences between the tranny and diff without binding or torquing any components.

Ok... So... Lets try to answer my own question... I mentioned that the driveshafts turn in opposite direction... first clue... I pointed to the levers, switches, controls (what ever term you 4x4 guys use) on the T box and asked what positions I need them to be in to find neutral? That's clue number two... So... because I come from cars and 4x4's are new to me, and because I'm new to this site and have not yet worked out the 4x4 jargon... Lets now answer my question... First Picture is.. as I understand it... the control arm for the HI/Low. The position shown is now Hi, the next position if you move the arm would be NEUTRAL, and the next position would be Low. First for other people like me, who come from CARS.. to move the Hi/Low, your Transmission needs to be in NEUTRAL! The Picture now shows Park mode with the transmission lever. The next Picture now shows First gear...

This next Picture demonstrates... NEUTRAL on the transmission. Remember car guys... the transmission needs to be in NEUTRAL... before the Hi/Low can be shifted into NEUTRAL... So... the next photo shows what I understand is called Locked position on the CDL or Central Diff Lock... Therefore this next photo shows what is Unlocked or NEUTRAL on the CDL... thus allowing the front driveshaft to be free from turning with the drive train...

Now that I have answered my own question and could be a benefit to those who come from cars and are new to 4x4's and this forum, lets now discuss the Rotoflex... I understand its use, I understand its need... I never said it was a bad idea.. I said I RACE and sometimes in rallies.. car builders and car drivers hate rubber things.. Back in 2005 I raced the Targa Newfoundland rally, I was developing so much torque in that race from my car that on day 4, I tore both motor mounts apart, the only thing holding my drive train in place was gravity and my trany mount. Rubber things fail in stressful situations and the opportunity to remove one less problem from a car/truck is always welcome.. So... now lets look at pictures to see the TESTS I would employ before eliminating the Rotoflex. I have placed a mark on my diff and the cradle, if UNDER load, that mark moves.. a Rotoflex is necessary! So if the mark is now here Or here... then the rotation to the drive line will hurt the driveshaft.

In the next photo I demonstrate that the driveshaft has the ability to slide inward and outward on a spline, thus allowing for some flexation on the driveshaft. Under the rubber boot at the point of the tool is the splines. So... I get it, you all are 4x4 guys and have never built or spent any time in a rally car. In this build, MY build, I will explore things I have used in the past with success and see if after TESTS they can be applied here.. This is NOT an off road vehicle. Rally cars, and I have 4, are built to endure a race, and each race has different requirements to succeed. a group B rally car requires lots of suspension travel, however, some races are designed to use far less travel (F1) to be stable in tight corners and differing road surfaces. In my build a travel on the suspension for this application of more than an inch in ether direction is more than enough, and requires stiff resistance from the parts if travel exceeds this... to put it clear, the air in the tires and the cushion under the drivers ass is plenty of suspension to be competitive, hence the use of neck restraints. Now... red90.. I learned a new thing today, you see I know Tony, he is a good guy and has helped on my build, so I call him Tony... When you chimed in, my eyes saw you as King Kong, that was the name I though applied to you, its the name that appears on your profile. I now realise its red90, that was a simple mistake on my part and was not meant as an insult. If you feel that was an insult, I suggest you bring that up with the forum master. It is clear that the last answer you posted still did not answer my question, but instead provide information not relating to my question. Thank you for the information, but it is clear that you and I can not communicate, either you cant read and comprehend what I write, or I cant write clear enough to be understandable, what ever the reason, I think it best if you just not post on my build page.

Simple solution if you don't like rubber thingies, is to get and swap in the rear drive shaft, yoke, spacer ring and dust shield out of a classic range rover (short wheelbase) which has dual u-joints. The diff pinion and driveshaft change from a 3 bolt to a 4 bolt flange.

Details available here: https://discoweb.org/oldsite/rotoconversion/index.htm

Thanks bsa_m21, I had come across this suggestion on other websites, the option usually leads to the pros and cons of the U joint and not if the applications is worth while. I think that this might be an option for me, the shortness of the rear shaft is probably going to cause me grief. The elimination of the second U joint is used only if the application works, you will find some drift cars and rally cars like this option, one less thing to fail.

I do love a snow day, been drinking coffee and hiding in my garage all day. So... whats next in my build? Well... there is still the problem of power steering... Option 1 is to use the P38 power pump like in the photo. Not sure if this will interfere with Alternator, Pump.. etc yet. Still working out the best options. Also there is the steering arm to consider...

Option 2 is the original Discovery 1 power steering pump... like in the photo. This option means I wont be able to use the original Discovery 1 radiator. As I mentioned before in earlier posts, the goal is to try to use as much Rover as possible, to show respect and originality to the build. I am trying to minimise the impact to the original Series 2a, while still being competitive.

A problem with the P38 is the exhaust manifold, it does get tight. There is a solution, but its not pretty. The pro is the original rad is made possible to consider... Remember... the bottom of the rad will need to sit as low as possible as this photo shows. The fender wings will need to be modified slightly to allow for some of the Rad to fit inside the wings, it is minor, an inch and a half on either wing will work.

So, use the P38 power steering and the inside of the frame will need to be cut, recessed, and strengthened. Makes a mess of the bump stop, but that can be worked. Cut the bottom of the P38 pump and use the left over other side to bolt to the front cross member.

Arggg... take all the words P38 and Discovery 1 power steering and turn them around.. I will master the terms needed to make myself clear someday.

John Boy wrote:Now... red90.. I learned a new thing today, you see I know Tony, he is a good guy and has helped on my build, so I call him Tony... When you chimed in, my eyes saw you as King Kong, that was the name I though applied to you, its the name that appears on your profile. I now realise its red90, that was a simple mistake on my part and was not meant as an insult.

Completely my misunderstanding. I apologize for my mistake. I will go and edit out my negative comments.

I love snow days!!!!! I was in my garage today trying to work out the front Differential angle, you see there is a small challenge to be faced. The tie rod needs to travel from one tire.. over the leaf spring... under the front differential... then over the other leaf spring to be connected to the opposite tire. Remember.. this is a differential from a discovery one (on coils) now on a series IIa (on leafs). Its not really much of a challenge, but does require some thinking. The differential can be rotated up enough to give clearance for the tie rod to pass under without impacting the angle of the front driveshaft to badly, But... this does change the angles of the steering arms and hence the angle of tires attack on cornering. I have to find a balance between Caster and camber without leading to vibration when travelling and breaking and cornering.

But.... on a lighter note... I love snow days... Here on Vancouver Island we sometimes have to go years without snowfall, this leads to having to travel up island to find snow, or travel to the main land. As you can well imagine, this tends to lead to a case of the "stir crazies" with land Rover owners. Why own the best 4x4 by far if you drive for groceries and pubs all day with no challenges? So I have made it a point to wait like "Mr. Been" in my Land Rover over night watching the snow fall, in anticipation of the first light of day so that I can drive out onto the roads and be the first to make tire tracks. :lol:

This however has lead to some discouraging roads where someone has beaten me, and messed up the road with their own tire tracks... To resolve this disappointment, I have adopted a new game I call... "climb the snow banks". This however as-well has lead to some new disappointments, for the other day, I noticed stuff wedged into the treads of my tires. Someone had thrown out a "Honda" car badge into the snow banks I was driving over, and a "Ford" badge, and even a "Toyota" badge. I was not sure why someone would throw out a perfectly good windshield wiper and even bits of broken tail lights... but Meh... some people are just litter bugs I guess. 8) I have to admit, that the car parts I have amassed to date, do make the walls of my garage cheerier and more colourful. However, I think it might be a good idea if I don't show my collection to my wife. :P

One thing I forgot to include the other day was the method needed to shift the Hi/Low shift arm when needed, so to anyone that dose not know this, on the Discovery one, you need to remove the solenoid, or put power to it to get the Hi/Low arm to move. See the photo provided. This photo just shows the solenoid in place.

Nice build! I am going to be starting a 2a 109 4 door build and have been wondering about axles. It was good to see all yours pictures. It really details much of the challenges I will face over the next year


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Did this project get completed and ever race?