The Rover-Landers of BC

My wife and I had decided to build a different kind of rally car this year, we normally race a couple of BMW's and a classic Mini. This time we would build a race truck for a special type of rally, one called The Road to Mandalay. http://www.endurorally.com/pages/road-to-mandalay I bought this truck with the intentions of cutting the front of the frame off, and attaching my Mazda B2600 front and rear differential to complete the bottom end of the truck. Then just add the body with the Mazda seats and presto, one 4x4 with two wheel option and modern parts. And so began the process of hauling this, as I thought, wreck back to Victory for some open heart surgery. On the way home from up island, I ran into some Rover club members who asked about my find and invited me to join this web forum.

Once home a call to the forum membership netted me a top from Alberta that made the IIa look quite good, just look past the rust... :lol: Three tires managed to hold air, the drivers blew apart under the addition of fresh air. Under the tear down, it quickly became evident that something was amiss, the frame was in ridiculously good condition.

With the back box of the Rover removed, I could see this was going to result in a plan B.. :shock: Every place I jammed my knife, I hit fresh metal, with what looked like factory paint still intact. The frame is iron and not the galvanized I was expecting. I found that as the tear down continued, I could no longer bring myself to cutting this frame as was originally planned.

Tear down of any vehicle is a little like Christmas, or the box of chocolates, you just never know what your going to get, until you get it. In fact, rust was something I look forward too, I like a challenge. This was turning out to be quite the disappointment :roll: ... At one point, I thought of going to Canadian Tire and buying a beach ball, I had the sand for it. A huge pile from the Rover created a small dune at the garage door.. :wink:

So with everything off and exposed, Plan B was to find a Rover drive train for the race.
The forum was a good start, and at first, I resisted the idea of a V8. The diesel was a complete non starter, the acquisition of fuel in this remote part of the world would best be served with good old fashion gas. So the plan now is to take the drive train as complete as possible from the donor Discovery 3.9 GEM, and wedge it into a hapless little IIa. Then race the tires off the little guy.... :twisted:

This should be fun!

Sounds like a fun build, best of luck.

So... with the frame exposed, I have primed and then rock guarded the frame, I work in small sections, making sure the frame is good. Then when everything looks fine, I prime. After a big enough area is primed, I then rock guard, this prevents me from repeating areas, and being overwhelmed by the task. The process is slow, but rewarding... The completed frame, sent outside and the Discovery is brought in..

I decided to by a lottery ticket this weekend, I find sitting down now quite a challenge, what with the horse shoes placed firmly up my backside. I had not expected to find the V8 to be in good or even acceptable condition, a rebuild was eminent. So imagine my surprise to find the V8 had been freshly rebuilt, Hone marks are still fresh, bearings show no wear, tolerances are great. This has lead me to believe I either have no sense of humour, or I have no ability to understand the written word. Allow me to explain. I have read the Forums of several Rover sites, and was made to believe that these vehicles are consistently a challenge, both to maintain and repair. I am stupefied at the ease this project has presented so far, so I have no ability to understand the written words at several Rover sites, or my sense of British humour is lacking. I blame this on the realization that my father is German, and my mother is British, and we all know that Germans have no sense of Ha ha, and that British women are even worse of than German men. So with the fear of chaos from a Monty Python style prank waiting in the wings for me, I find it best now not to press my luck any further and offer some sort of appeasement to the gods of Land Rovers. As such I decided today to drop the transmission on my knee cap, both causing great discomfort and rewarding the Gods of Land Rover with a pound of flesh. I will be taking a bit of time off the build... :wink:

While I sit on my backside, I do have a few questions. Is there a resource that describes the challenges I will face? Radiator needed, wiring issues, Drive train glitches, etc? I have found a few sites that say Rover V8's can be done, but little info on how. Is there a schismatic of say... a defender V8?

Ahhh... There is that Monty Python moment I was looking for. I returned the 88 to the garage, which is actually 86 inches from centre hub to centre hub, so.... yup...there's that... and noticed the previous owners hanging of the leaf springs. They are correct on one side and wrong on the other, I am researching to see which side is right. This pattern gave the previous owner a 50/50 chance of being sort of right :lol: The front of the frame is the only real rust I have to deal with at the moment :mrgreen:

Is the right spring broken or is there an inverted shackle? Shackles should be at the rear on a Land Rover.

Yes King Kong, one of the shackles is backwards. I'm guessing this must have made for an interesting driving experience, lets hope the previous owner never actually paid someone to set this up, I would want my money back...

So with only a sore knee cap (I once had my entire spine ripped out, went to work the next day and never complained once. I did need to keep a raging stiffy though as my shoulders needed propping up) I proceeded to place the drive train into the 88 frame as a mock up. It is not set to correct hight or location, but just in to see where if any problems I will find. My goal is to keep the IIa as original as possible, should anyone in the future want to return this once proud Rover to its original condition. With that goal in mind, I am now trying to determine just how to mount this drive train in place with minimal impact. Having some of the mounting points on the block and transmission close to the original IIa frame points is my next puzzle. The final drive shaft might be ...Ludicrously.. Ridiculously... Idiotically.. short, I would just remind the reader that this is a rally car build, not a rock crawler build. There is a need for speed on gravel and old tarmac roads, with the occasional incident of me clearly driving to fast and skidding of the road into a swamp or bush, where the access to four wheel drive will save my bacon, allowing escape from a bad situation and making me look, for all intensive purposes, like a hero, totally prepared to concur Asia... All hail me... :twisted:

The battery box will have to go, so I will have to find some clever way of reusing it in the build, for any future space alien Archaeologist intent or restoring this Rover to pre world war III condition. I can see now that the gear mechanism for the Auto trans will need to be placed close to the bulkhead, and the high/low will be between the seats near a park brake. Obviously next to a coffee holder, placed in proximity of a USB port, my microwave oven and a small sink with hot and cold running water... Then there is the front end, thinking I can just make the 3.9 GEM air cooled was my first thought. I wish not to place a Defender front end on this IIa, that would defeat the build, but I am at a bit of a loss at the moment. Then there is also the issue of steering, that's important in a race.. :lol: Lighting is handy in the dark, so there is a need for head lights... It might be helpful to know how fast and how far I have travelled, so a speedo needs to be considered. I could ask the navigator to tie knots in a string and drag a rock to gage distance, or use the stars for distance and speed... The mind boggles... :drunken:

While it's a chevy V6 and not a Rover V8, the attached series of youtube videos may prove insightful in how the guy from NS made this all fit on an original Series Land Rover. He kept the front end (non defender look), but did forego leaf springs for air suspension :?

actually I think he kept the parabolics but used air bags from range rover suspension to keep them from flattening, or maybe i misinterpreted what he was doing

^^ air bags on the rear leafs as spring helpers for towing. Pretty cool set up.

Quick question to the OP - what are the brakes like on the disco and do you need them? I may be interested in them and a few other parts if you're willing to let them go.

Chèers
Dave

Thanks Judge Dredd for the video link, It was both informative and painful to watch. At least 6 episodes dedicated to the same repetitive problems, but sometimes talking problems to death prevents them from happening... :roll: I was impressed at the level of math he used to determine proper geometry, that's something you don't see everyday. The finished product was really neat, I thought the air ride was way cool. I think I might use air shocks on my build, but will maintain the leafs. So today I pulled the front and rear differentials off and have begun doing the numbers for the Discovery differentials to be used, the first thing I noted was the bump stop plates on the Discovery are in the same location as the original IIa bump stop plates. So add the spring plates to the Discovery differential, cut off the excess coil stuff, keep the torsion bar stuff and I should be good to go. This will give me disk brakes... bonus.. The Discovery differential is 3 inches wider than the stock IIa, so a wider stanz is also a bonus for racing. So the frame is now destine to be returned to the great out doors, and the Discovery is next to be attacked...

Quick update, the transmission cross beam was chopped off, I have decided to move it back the few inches needed so that it can be reused in the build. That will both satisfy the Gods of Land Rover by keeping it as much original as possible, and appeal to any future builder of similar projects and their respective budgets. With the Discovery frame being 25 inches wide ID, and the IIa being 25 inches wide ID, I will simply reuse the Discovery motor mounts... because Rover knows what they are doing.... right?

Well... the island 4x4 guys stopped by the house today to see if they can help with fitting the leaf springs for the discovery differentials, it sounds positive. All things being equal, this build has been pretty straight forward so far, when the frame goes into their shop for work, I will be back on my BMW E3 build. In the mean time, its back to the wife's 450 SL. :(

Still waiting on the 4x4 spring guys... but in the mean time, the wife's 450 SL is now purple... She's a girl...

Finally have leads on, now the D2 differentials are next. Yawn.... takes so long. :|

going into month 3, still waiting on difs being bolted to leafs. :bounce:

Finally!!!!!!!!!! Frame is home, and I have restarted the build. :D With Rover rims and races style tires on, the bottom end is starting to take shape. The differentials are 3 inches wider than stock, so the final stanz should be aggressive.

It breaks my heart to have to say, but I have had to cut the original cross members off and use the parts from the D!, so much for staying original, but the bits just refused to line up. :(

So, yes I bought the 1955 rover 88, series 2 from a member of this forum. Fear not, for I do respect the rovers. So, I will be swapping some of my worn bits with the better bits of this series 2. In the end the series 2 will still be hole, with additional parts from my 2a to boot. So for any member interested in salvaging the series 2, in time this can be done. I will start posting photos soon to.
Cheers all.

So, here are a couple of 1959 Rover 2 photos, I boobed and called it a 1955, my bad.

Ahh the steering box, the unmovable British work of wonder that I read so much about on this forum. I spent all of five minutes looking at the problem, then used my cutting wheel to remove the unit. Don't hate on me for doing it this way, I saved the insides and have a spare sleeve to install into. So for the future, I have a working steering box thing that can be installed if needed.

Finally patched up the front of the frame, and will modify the front bumper to use the bolts from a side position instead of the top down way the Rover once used.

A splash of short strand fibre glass and presto, all good now. Also a look at how roughly the P38 power steering box will fit.

All four mounts finally welded in place after an eternity of fine tuning. As you can see, I have generally got 18 inches of motor height from the top of the frame where the radiator once sat. I checked with the 1959 rover and it has generally 19 inches of height, So the hood should close with 1 inch of room to spare, just don't let the motor mounts fail.... :wink:

So.... Who's your Daddy? That's right, me... I have been trying desperately to reuse and keep as much of the original Rover as possible for any future possibility that this unit might be returned to its original condition. To that end, I was disappointed to have to use the D1 cross members on the original rover, that was until now :D In the following photos, I managed to reuse the original cross members though not in there original positions, but still there none the less.

The exhaust system will be a bit of a challenge as I want to keep it as high into the frame as possible. This will secure good ground clearance.

The original exhaust headers will also allow for the starter motor to fit with little difficulty. So your probably asking yourself, Ya... but John, what happens if you need to drop the transmission? That's easy actually, there is clearance still to pull the block straight up, the bell housing gets pulled off, then the whole transmission can be pulled straight out while resting on the cross members. But hey... I build things never to fail, and so never need to be removed... :lol:

So, I got to thinking. I have room I think to reuse the discovery 1 power steering box, but it comes with pro's and cons. The P38 puts the control arm ahead of the front diff, but the D1 puts the nut for the control arm over the diff.

The pro's are that it is a cleaner fit, and allows for the possible reuse of the original rad from the D1. Cons are the bump stop problem, with two solutions. One; place the diffs on the bottom of the leaf springs, this screws with the drive shaft geometry, but not terribly. Two; use a stiff shock to prevent the bump stop from impact, like a heavy duty shock or air shock.

I think for my purposes of a race truck, option two is best. A stiff ride is good for cornering and racing, this also allows for minimal impact to keep the rover traditional. Longer bump stops might also be needed to insure the steering is never impacted.

This will also mean cutting into the rover fender wings, but that can be done on a minimum impact.

one can see that the wings come almost flush to the frame, and so does the D1 rad. Then there is also the idea of power breaks or just stock man power breaks.

Just a note on stanz, the D1 diffs are wider, as are the aluminium rims. Good for racing, bad for appearance. With the stock white rims, the tires come flush with the outside of the wings, rather then recessed like stock. Gauge from the bulk head holder thingie doma hicky on the original and mine.

There is also the option of longer shackles, this might be needed, but only if I'm desperate. Want a low profile for racing, not a tall one :twisted: :twisted:

Dropped the bulkhead on the frame today for a look, and thanks to the excessive measurements, the fit is very nice. The only tight spot is the passengers exhaust manifold, but it only needs a bit of fudging to make work. The severe gap on the back side, between the block and bulkhead will house the electrical parts for the 3.9 GEM, placed on a tray.

The transmission tunnel will be customised to hold the auto shifter and high/low shifter.

The block does sit low in the frame, and gives good clearance all the way around. The sides of the block also give adequate clearances.

Hi, do you still need that driveshaft manufacturing?

yes tony, I do. Still just working out the differential angles to be sure, but soon, very soon. :)

Well, after forever, loading the frame to compress the ride height and then unloading the frame to produce differentials and tires leaving the pavement, I finally have a midpoint geometry for the drive shafts. This is a race truck, so the need for the differential travel is not dramatic as in off-roading, but more for compression in tight corners and under acceleration and deceleration loads. I have today given the two shafts to Tony to be modified and balanced, and wait with baited breath for the return. In the mean time, the bulk head is under repairs and almost ready for paint. soon the body will be reunited with the frame and then the real hard work begins, electrical. I hate electrical.

That is Peter, both he and his Rover live in Victoria now :)

Hello John, how is the Rover build going?

hey Tony; Things are good, been busy with house project and family issues. The build proceeds well, and I should post photos soon. Typical put the parts on, check fit, remove the parts, paint, reinstall parts, check fit, remove, etc. Cheers mate

Well, Christmas is near and I have been a busy little Rover elf. My project was on hold for a bit, I went racing in the Targa Baja, and upon my return, had to spend a bit of time repairing the race damage I generated. My Bitter SC shines now as it did before I left on this adventure race. I can say with some satisfaction that my race mates will never tangle their Porsche's with my Bitter on a dirt road ever again. So... Where did I leave off? Ah yes, the power steering and the drive shafts. I have both the shafts finished, have installed and tested the fit. I have also figured out how and where the power steering P38 pump with finally be located. I have taken pictures, but sadly, my new phone only likes to take extreme hi rez photos. So... I will have to grab my old phone and retake all the images I now can't upload. In the mean time, just imagine my rover is yet again disassembled and I have once again committed to putting on the final coats of paint on the frame and will soon be building the bottom of the Rover again for the last time. Photos will arrive soon.

Cheers

So, I found a camera with a low enough resolution to take photos with, here are the two drive shafts.

The frame under final coat of black paint, notice the steering cassette is missing.The shinny black area is where the P38 steering box will be located. More painted bits. Yet more painted bits and the D2 dif ready for paint.

It is necessary to remove all the metal bits on the inner part of the frame for the P38 power steering pump, I will need to weld a bracket on the top of the frame eventually, this will raise the pump up enough to prevent it from hitting the differential under compression. The bump stop will have to be screwed to the frame as well, only on the inner side.

Yes, that is the bulk head and drive train in the back ground, the bulk head is under primer and is fully repaired, the drive train will just need a cleaning, as I refuse to paint the block.

paint on the front differential, and its return to the frame. with the old rover steel rims on, the front is starting to look more traditional. I will soon have to address the steering and its linkages and how they work with the leaf springs.

I've been enjoying following this. It has inspired many mad ideas.

When is the race?

Ray

My navigator and I might not be able to run the Road to Mandalay race, we think it might have been cancelled altogether. So the plan now might be to run the Pan America race instead, that will be in 2018 if things don't change.

A quick update, the rear end is being finished and painted and is ready for assembly.

Ah, Sunday... a good day to post. So... here are for your amusement, photos of where the build is to date. I have reinstalled the drive train for the one millionth time, or so it feels that way, and here is hoping that it is in to stay. I think it looks just as awesome with the steel rims on for daily travel, as it will with race rims and low profile tires. But... that is just my arrogance speaking :D Question.. anyone know where I could get stock lugs to fit the studs on my diffs? This is a Discover 1 Differential, and I don't want to use the shiny stock lugs. My small garage has two bays and the the right of this photo is my Porsche 924 turbo up on jack stands, But just focus on the size of that V8, I hope to chew up the back side of my Porsche when this thing is running. :mrgreen: Going to pick paint next week, start spraying the bulk head and rims... Thinking the Desert tan colour I see these things in would look cool.

Defender/series lug nuts should fit Disco 1 wheel studs.


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Stock steel wheel nuts are black painted. The one you have there are for alloys and should not be used on the steel wheels as they are the wrong shape.

The part number is RRD500010. They are quite cheap.

Thanks for the part number and yes, I have no plans to use the aluminium lugs on the steel rims, that's why I asked... Where can I buy the steel rim lugs? I have checked, princess auto, lordco, Canadian tire, JB Precision. Is my only choice Rover?

Got mine from ebay really cheap. Kabota tractors use the same size and angle as our steel wheels use, so you could check your local dealer. I remember that not being a very cheap way to go but I only need a couple to how the spare on the rack.

Pat

John Boy wrote:Thanks for the part number and yes, I have no plans to use the aluminium lugs on the steel rims, that's why I asked... Where can I buy the steel rim lugs? I have checked, princess auto, lordco, Canadian tire, JB Precision. Is my only choice Rover?

Yes, any Rover parts supplier of your choice. They are maybe $10 for a set. You won't find any locally as classic Land Rovers are the only vehicles that use a 16 mm lug nut.

https://www.lrdirect.com/RRD500010-Whee ... teel-Whee/

I'll add this link for anyone that want nicer options to stock.
http://www.wrington.co.uk/land%20rover% ... 0nuts.html

Closer to home are:

http://www.billet4x4.com/pro-lugnuts.htm

http://www.okoffroad.com/stuff-lugnuts.htm

M.

I know Don at Rovalution has them usually in stock. Give him a call, he may be able to send them to you in Victoria on the Greyhound which is fast and cheap.


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Thanks for all the leads, I will be doing some checking. But.... On to my first glitch :| So.. I bolted the two drive shafts in today, the rear went in without a hitch. But... I will have to load the rear end to be sure the shaft can travel in and out well with out falling apart or binding with a smash. At present it looks like the rear shaft will need to be shorted a touch, but the load test will decide. A photo for you all to see. I chose to delete the rubber spacer thing and direct bolt to the rear diff yoke, I will likely spot weld the two together when finished to be sure nothing slips. The shaft turns free and uses just the one U joint at the large brake drum, rotating the rear diff today aligned on the spring cradles then bolting things tight ensured this. When all the tests work, welding the cradles to the diff will stop rotation on the springs. So... now the glitch. I bolted the front shaft in and when moving the frame back and forth, I quickly realised the front shaft turned in the opposite direction to the front diffs rotation. So... the shaft turned clockwise and the yoke on the front diff turned counter clockwise. :? The next two photos show the front shaft, notice the small notch I made to the original cross member to ensure that when the load comes off the front diff, the driveshaft won't impact the cross member.

You need to have a u joint or the rotoflex at the rear. It can't just be a solid connection.

Now... where is the problem??? The next two photos show my crescent wrench on the transfer box switchy thingy whatchama call it, and the transmission shifter doo dad thing... :wink: I can't move the transmission shifter leeaver with the wrench, but the transfer box switch moves freely and this gives the unit a neutral. So.. I can get neutral, but the shafts turn in opposite directions. What am I missing?

You need to have a u joint or the rotoflex at the rear. It can't just be a solid connection.

Also some photos with the bulk head in place showing off and how things fit so far.

Hi John, the first picture of the T-box, with the crescent wrench on it is the Hi-Lo, but you will need to turn the input sheet to shift it. The second picture is the Centre Diff Lock.

When you push a D1 with the front drive shaft removed, if the CDL is out the forward output from the T-box will turn backwards. Its just a differential between front and rear outputs.

Hi Tony, I understood what you described, I just like to use bogus words to sound stupid :bounce: Could you explain the glitch? The two shafts are turning in opposite directions making the rear diff drive forward and the front diff drive backwards. the T box is in neutral.

Akkk...that was a terrible way to ask my question, let me try again. Its in High range... and neutral on diff lock... whats the fix?

There is no fix, thats the way it is. If you have a rear wheel drive car, with the rear wheels off the ground, trans in park. If you spin one wheel, the other goes backwards. This is because of the differential action.

Put the CDL in and the rear and front outputs will rotate the same direction. I do agree with other posts, that you do need the do-nut joint.

John Boy wrote:Akkk...that was a terrible way to ask my question, let me try again. Its in High range... and neutral on diff lock... whats the fix?

There is no such thing as "neutral" in diff lock. It is unlocked or locked. When unlocked and you spin one shaft, the other will spin backwards. That is how a differential works.

red90 wrote:You need to have a u joint or the rotoflex at the rear. It can't just be a solid connection.

I'll repeat this in case you missed it. The way it is attached right now will break something very quickly.

Ok.. King Kong... I was not ignoring your comments, I understand the use of the Rotoflex. There is a good reason for the Rotoflex coupling which is to absorb the different drive shocks between the front and rear driveshafts and any differential anomalies between them. Take this away and the shock stresses are directly transferred to the drive train and differentials at both ends, particularly off roading.

I am not building an Off roader, but a race truck. To be used in a rear wheel drive mode, on semi paved surfaces, hence the use of the Discovery 1 drive train. I have a couple of BMW rally cars and the factory uses the Rotoflex style discs on them too. I have on occasion deleted them and used a direct connection with great success, but admittedly, with increased vibration. I mentioned in my post that I was "testing" the setup to see if this idea would be equally successful, and would weld the final yokes "only" if the tests panned out. As it stands now, the shaft seems a bit to long still and "might" need to be shortened. If I'm going to have to shorten it, then I will likely use the Rotoflex because the length of the shaft is simply going to put too much stress on the rear Differential..

As for my use of terms.. I'm a car guy, 4x4's are new to me and so are the terms, so it would be nice if you cut me a little slack. Don't confuse my sense of humour as a lack of knowledge, I have been building my own race cars since I was a kid, and I'm over 50 now. This is my build and if, and only if the tests work out, we might all learn something new.

Tony, thank you for the input but I'm a bit lost in your terms, "but you will need to turn the input sheet to shift it" ...Sheet? "if the CDL is out the forward output from the T-box will turn backwards" ...is CDL the Center Diff lock? and if it is, are you saying put the shifter back on to use the CDL? "Put the CDL in and the rear and front outputs will rotate the same direction" ... Again.. are you saying put the shifter and its associated linkages back on? If you are then is it not possible to just shift the connector in a direction.. the connector being the thing I had my crescent wrench attached too.

"Akkk...that was a terrible way to ask my question, let me try again. Its in High range... and neutral on diff lock... whats the fix?" ...As you can see by my post, I am trying to use the correct terms with a still limited understanding of the 4x4 lingo, as i continue to read other posts in my spare time I will no doubt learn what words to use and where they are appropriate. I went through this with the Mini guys, the Mercedes guys and now with the Porsche guys... makes the use of a message board problematic at times. But thanks all the same for any comments that help in my build, I truly appreciate them.

The sheet should be shaft, damn autocorrect. The CDL, centre diff lock, is only locked or open, no neutral. The Hi-Lo has neutral between the 2 speeds.

John Boy wrote:I was not ignoring your comments, I understand the use of the Rotoflex. There is a good reason for the Rotoflex coupling which is to absorb the different drive shocks between the front and rear driveshafts and any differential anomalies between them. Take this away and the shock stresses are directly transferred to the drive train and differentials at both ends, particularly off roading.

The rotoflex is not just for shock absorption. It acts as a u-joint allowing for angular misalignment as the suspension moves. They way you have it installed, it will tear apart as the axle moves up and down. You need to either install it correctly or replace it with a u-joint.

As to the transfer case. The item you have the crescent wrench on is the shifter than locks the center differential. It has two positions. One is unlocked. In that mode, it is a normal differential with even torque split front and rear. If one flange is not connected, it will spin and no power will go to the other one. In the other position, the differential is locked. The two output shafts are then locked together and spin at the same speed.

"Please stop being insulting." ??? WTF??? This always seems to happen when I post a build on a group site, one person takes what I say out of context and a nose gets bent out of shape.. I asked a question...

"So... now the glitch. I bolted the front shaft in and when moving the frame back and forth, I quickly realised the front shaft turned in the opposite direction to the front diffs rotation. So... the shaft turned clockwise and the yoke on the front diff turned counter clockwise."

Your first response... "You need to have a u joint or the rotoflex at the rear. It can't just be a solid connection." That's not an answer

Your second response.. "You need to have a u joint or the rotoflex at the rear. It can't just be a solid connection." still not an answer.

Your third response... "There is no such thing as "neutral" in diff lock. It is unlocked or locked. When unlocked and you spin one shaft, the other will spin backwards. That is how a differential works." ... I know how a differential works, I just wanted to know how to get the two parts of the Hi/Low and the centre diff lock into the correct positions so that the drive shafts will operate in the correct direction! so again... no answer from you.

Your forth response... "I'll repeat this in case you missed it. The way it is attached right now will break something very quickly." ... yet again, no answer to my question. Tony was trying to answer, you are just making your comments known! So I finally respond to you and "Please stop being insulting. Thanks." ???

We are never going to understand each other, so I think it best if you stop posting comments on my build page please. I promise to show you the same respect and not comment on your page. Thanks

As to lever position. If you are connecting both driveshafts, then you would run with the center diff in the unlock position on the road (this is full time 4WD) and the locked position off road (part time 4WD). If you are only connecting one drive shaft, for wanting to run in rear wheel drive, then the center diff needs to be in the locked position.

The other shifter on the transfer case has three positions (high, neutral and low). The two shifters are separate and do not interact.

Gents!!!!! Be calm. Go to your corners. :P
Unfortunately it is very easy to take offense via the written word when none is meant. Please don't let it escalate. (OK, I'm ready to be burned now... :shock: )

Re Rotoflex and u-joints:

With independent suspension the diff doesn't move and sometimes the driveshaft only has a single flexible joint to accommodate vibration from the engine.

With a solid axle the diff can go up and down, and even rotate slightly (one wheel up, the other down), but the angle of the input shaft in the vertical plane remains constant. This is true for both leaf and coil suspensions

With a driveshaft with a single flex joint at the transmission and solid mounted at the diff, as the suspension moves up and down, the driveshaft will try to rotate the differential upwards to keep the driveshaft & input input shaft aligned. This will destroy either the u-joint at the tranny or the input shaft, bearings, etc. at the diff. It will put a huge amount of torque on the entire rear axle casing and possibly tear/distort mounting tabs, leaf spring centering pins, u-bolts, etc. Also, it will put similar loading to the tranny output shaft. It is a very bad idea to solid mount the driveshaft to the diff.

In 4x4's, we have long travel suspensions. This exacerbates the tranny/diff alignment issues and is why many 4x4 driveshafts have double-carden joints - basically two u-joints bolted together at each end of the driveshaft, to allow greater vertical angle differences between the tranny and diff without binding or torquing any components.

Ok... So... Lets try to answer my own question... I mentioned that the driveshafts turn in opposite direction... first clue... I pointed to the levers, switches, controls (what ever term you 4x4 guys use) on the T box and asked what positions I need them to be in to find neutral? That's clue number two... So... because I come from cars and 4x4's are new to me, and because I'm new to this site and have not yet worked out the 4x4 jargon... Lets now answer my question... First Picture is.. as I understand it... the control arm for the HI/Low. The position shown is now Hi, the next position if you move the arm would be NEUTRAL, and the next position would be Low. First for other people like me, who come from CARS.. to move the Hi/Low, your Transmission needs to be in NEUTRAL! The Picture now shows Park mode with the transmission lever. The next Picture now shows First gear...

This next Picture demonstrates... NEUTRAL on the transmission. Remember car guys... the transmission needs to be in NEUTRAL... before the Hi/Low can be shifted into NEUTRAL... So... the next photo shows what I understand is called Locked position on the CDL or Central Diff Lock... Therefore this next photo shows what is Unlocked or NEUTRAL on the CDL... thus allowing the front driveshaft to be free from turning with the drive train...

Now that I have answered my own question and could be a benefit to those who come from cars and are new to 4x4's and this forum, lets now discuss the Rotoflex... I understand its use, I understand its need... I never said it was a bad idea.. I said I RACE and sometimes in rallies.. car builders and car drivers hate rubber things.. Back in 2005 I raced the Targa Newfoundland rally, I was developing so much torque in that race from my car that on day 4, I tore both motor mounts apart, the only thing holding my drive train in place was gravity and my trany mount. Rubber things fail in stressful situations and the opportunity to remove one less problem from a car/truck is always welcome.. So... now lets look at pictures to see the TESTS I would employ before eliminating the Rotoflex. I have placed a mark on my diff and the cradle, if UNDER load, that mark moves.. a Rotoflex is necessary! So if the mark is now here Or here... then the rotation to the drive line will hurt the driveshaft.

In the next photo I demonstrate that the driveshaft has the ability to slide inward and outward on a spline, thus allowing for some flexation on the driveshaft. Under the rubber boot at the point of the tool is the splines. So... I get it, you all are 4x4 guys and have never built or spent any time in a rally car. In this build, MY build, I will explore things I have used in the past with success and see if after TESTS they can be applied here.. This is NOT an off road vehicle. Rally cars, and I have 4, are built to endure a race, and each race has different requirements to succeed. a group B rally car requires lots of suspension travel, however, some races are designed to use far less travel (F1) to be stable in tight corners and differing road surfaces. In my build a travel on the suspension for this application of more than an inch in ether direction is more than enough, and requires stiff resistance from the parts if travel exceeds this... to put it clear, the air in the tires and the cushion under the drivers ass is plenty of suspension to be competitive, hence the use of neck restraints. Now... red90.. I learned a new thing today, you see I know Tony, he is a good guy and has helped on my build, so I call him Tony... When you chimed in, my eyes saw you as King Kong, that was the name I though applied to you, its the name that appears on your profile. I now realise its red90, that was a simple mistake on my part and was not meant as an insult. If you feel that was an insult, I suggest you bring that up with the forum master. It is clear that the last answer you posted still did not answer my question, but instead provide information not relating to my question. Thank you for the information, but it is clear that you and I can not communicate, either you cant read and comprehend what I write, or I cant write clear enough to be understandable, what ever the reason, I think it best if you just not post on my build page.

Simple solution if you don't like rubber thingies, is to get and swap in the rear drive shaft, yoke, spacer ring and dust shield out of a classic range rover (short wheelbase) which has dual u-joints. The diff pinion and driveshaft change from a 3 bolt to a 4 bolt flange.

Details available here: https://discoweb.org/oldsite/rotoconversion/index.htm

Thanks bsa_m21, I had come across this suggestion on other websites, the option usually leads to the pros and cons of the U joint and not if the applications is worth while. I think that this might be an option for me, the shortness of the rear shaft is probably going to cause me grief. The elimination of the second U joint is used only if the application works, you will find some drift cars and rally cars like this option, one less thing to fail.

I do love a snow day, been drinking coffee and hiding in my garage all day. So... whats next in my build? Well... there is still the problem of power steering... Option 1 is to use the P38 power pump like in the photo. Not sure if this will interfere with Alternator, Pump.. etc yet. Still working out the best options. Also there is the steering arm to consider...

Option 2 is the original Discovery 1 power steering pump... like in the photo. This option means I wont be able to use the original Discovery 1 radiator. As I mentioned before in earlier posts, the goal is to try to use as much Rover as possible, to show respect and originality to the build. I am trying to minimise the impact to the original Series 2a, while still being competitive.

A problem with the P38 is the exhaust manifold, it does get tight. There is a solution, but its not pretty. The pro is the original rad is made possible to consider... Remember... the bottom of the rad will need to sit as low as possible as this photo shows. The fender wings will need to be modified slightly to allow for some of the Rad to fit inside the wings, it is minor, an inch and a half on either wing will work.

So, use the P38 power steering and the inside of the frame will need to be cut, recessed, and strengthened. Makes a mess of the bump stop, but that can be worked. Cut the bottom of the P38 pump and use the left over other side to bolt to the front cross member.

Arggg... take all the words P38 and Discovery 1 power steering and turn them around.. I will master the terms needed to make myself clear someday.

John Boy wrote:Now... red90.. I learned a new thing today, you see I know Tony, he is a good guy and has helped on my build, so I call him Tony... When you chimed in, my eyes saw you as King Kong, that was the name I though applied to you, its the name that appears on your profile. I now realise its red90, that was a simple mistake on my part and was not meant as an insult.

Completely my misunderstanding. I apologize for my mistake. I will go and edit out my negative comments.

I love snow days!!!!! I was in my garage today trying to work out the front Differential angle, you see there is a small challenge to be faced. The tie rod needs to travel from one tire.. over the leaf spring... under the front differential... then over the other leaf spring to be connected to the opposite tire. Remember.. this is a differential from a discovery one (on coils) now on a series IIa (on leafs). Its not really much of a challenge, but does require some thinking. The differential can be rotated up enough to give clearance for the tie rod to pass under without impacting the angle of the front driveshaft to badly, But... this does change the angles of the steering arms and hence the angle of tires attack on cornering. I have to find a balance between Caster and camber without leading to vibration when travelling and breaking and cornering.

But.... on a lighter note... I love snow days... Here on Vancouver Island we sometimes have to go years without snowfall, this leads to having to travel up island to find snow, or travel to the main land. As you can well imagine, this tends to lead to a case of the "stir crazies" with land Rover owners. Why own the best 4x4 by far if you drive for groceries and pubs all day with no challenges? So I have made it a point to wait like "Mr. Been" in my Land Rover over night watching the snow fall, in anticipation of the first light of day so that I can drive out onto the roads and be the first to make tire tracks. :lol:

This however has lead to some discouraging roads where someone has beaten me, and messed up the road with their own tire tracks... To resolve this disappointment, I have adopted a new game I call... "climb the snow banks". This however as-well has lead to some new disappointments, for the other day, I noticed stuff wedged into the treads of my tires. Someone had thrown out a "Honda" car badge into the snow banks I was driving over, and a "Ford" badge, and even a "Toyota" badge. I was not sure why someone would throw out a perfectly good windshield wiper and even bits of broken tail lights... but Meh... some people are just litter bugs I guess. 8) I have to admit, that the car parts I have amassed to date, do make the walls of my garage cheerier and more colourful. However, I think it might be a good idea if I don't show my collection to my wife. :P

One thing I forgot to include the other day was the method needed to shift the Hi/Low shift arm when needed, so to anyone that dose not know this, on the Discovery one, you need to remove the solenoid, or put power to it to get the Hi/Low arm to move. See the photo provided. This photo just shows the solenoid in place.

Nice build! I am going to be starting a 2a 109 4 door build and have been wondering about axles. It was good to see all yours pictures. It really details much of the challenges I will face over the next year


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Did this project get completed and ever race?