The Rover-Landers of BC

I can't start my 2.5 Naturally Aspirated Diesel and would like some pointers on where to start an investigation. Obviously it's cold just now, but no colder than over christmas when it started just fine.

One thing of interest is that in the past when I've had to crank it a bit I've had white-ish smoke and unburnt fuel coming out of the exhaust. Just now I get nothing. This may or may not be relevant.

Ok, so what's my order of attack? My thinking was..

(1) Glow plugs
(2) Injector pump
(3) Injectors

Erm, not sure where to go after (or before) that.

All advice gratefully received.

I'd check the glow plugs first. Although there are perhaps more advanced methods, I've found the easiest is to pull them out and test them with a battery and a couple of jump wires — just don't be holding the business end when you connect the power... they should come to a full glow in 10-15 seconds. Usually if they're oily, thats an indicator they're not doing their job.

cheers, Dave

have you got fuel?

Is the lift pump ok? I go through these annually!

filter clogged?

Step 1: Pull an injector line and crank over. See if you are getting fuel.

If not, check the fuel solenoid first. Then the lift pump.

Hello, Put 12V directly to the fuel solenoid at the back of the injection pump. Does it click ? If it does bleed the system and crack a feed to an injector to check fuel supply. An air free spurt of fuel should be observed when that cylinder would be firing. If all that checks out, heater plugs should be checked next.

Thanks guys, I'll try these suggestions out.

Don't forget the gunge collector/seperator under the back left wheel well when going through the filters.

JD

Ok, lokks like it's a lack of fuel. Here's what I know so far:

(1) The tank has lots of diesel in it :wink:

(2) Getting the 24 volt generator off an FFR 90 so you can get at the fuel distributor is a bitch - and the damn thing is heavy too :shock:

(3) I have fuel at the filter - hand cranking the lift pump with the top banjo loose on the filter shows clean fuel with no air. So far so good.

(4) I do NOT have fuel at the distributor. With the air vent screw open on the distributor body and hand cranking the lift pump again I get no fuel coming out of the vent.

Question for all you diesel heads - should I be getting fuel after a few cranks of the lift pump or do I have to pump for a long time to purge the air?

Many thanks, David

It should not take too many cranks, but I'd try more than a few.

I assume you've openned the correct thing?
http://members.shaw.ca/jbarge/dps_injector_pump.jpg

Ok, here's where I'm at:

- Fuel gets to filter from lift pump (slackened banjo and saw fuel come out when lift pump activated by hand)

- Fuel gets to distributor from filter (opened bleed valve [yes, I was using the right one!] and manualy pumped to see fuel coming out)

- Fuel gets to injectors from distributor (disconnected one injector and turned engine over, saw fuel spurt out)

- Solenoid is ok (gave it 12v direct from battery and it didn't click)

- All glow plugs are ok (removed one by one and hooked up to 12v, all heated up very quickly - all were dry and had a slight white crust on them, no oil)

- 12v getting to glow plugs (just to be sure I checked the power was good when ignition switch in appropriate position)

Still no joy. Engine turns over but does not fire. No smoke from exhaust.

Unfortunately, whilst scratching my head thinking what to do next I saw a small leak of fuel from the new filter I'd fitted and managed to over tighten it. The "special" bolt that holds the base on has snapped so I need to order up a new bolt and bottom plate. Any one know the part numbers and a place to get them short of ordering from the UK?

So, I'm actualy worse of than I was at lunch time when I started doing this as I have to wait fo the new fuel filter bits to arrive. :(

Whilst I'm waiting, anyone care to suggest what I could look at next once the system is back together again?

Should I order up a new lift pump just in case? Anything else I should add to my parts order?

Cheers, David

Ok, small update (gotta love this blogging style of shop report :) )

I've mamage to extract the broken bolt from the fuel filter housing so with a bit of luck I'll be able to get an equivelant from the local industrial supply store in the morning rather than pay 90cents for the part and $20 for shiping to get it here from the UK.

Here's the bolt:

http://landrover.attrisoft.com/olive/br ... r-bolt.jpg

Quick question - do these fuel filters often leak slightly? I noticed that there's a fair amount of fuel soiling around the filter housing on my truck so I guess the old filter had been leaking for a while. The old filter was of a completely different make to the new one, which was one of these:

http://landrover.attrisoft.com/olive/ne ... filter.jpg

Thanks, David

They shouldn't leak (IME).

Hopefully, it is all just a loose filter. The bolt should just be a regular metric one (I would think). IME, thiese are bitch to prime.

If you have fuel at the injectors and no boom, boom...........

Does the engine "sound" right? I'm a little worried about your timing belt. Have a look in through the oil filler and see if the rockers are rocking when you crank the engine.

Is the injection pump secure? Does it look like it is in the correct location with respect to timing?

Are you giving a good long pre-glow?

Try a shot of ether and see if it will run on that.

Wow, this is getting complicated. I'll certainly check the rockers when I next get chance to work on the truck - probably Friday or failing that, Sunday.

On the general issue of priming the fuel system - how do I know I've got all the air out? Before the filter bolt snapped I had fuel without bubbles coming from the filter banjo and the distributor bleed valve when loosened. In both cases this was after a few pumps of just air followed by air and fuel mixed.

I've read and re-read the service manual and it's clear that this procedure is correct, but what about the fuel return pipes? Could there be air in them? How would I get it out if there were some in there?

Diesel 101. Sign me up for an "F". :shock:

Tell you what, when I get the new bolt, I'll re-prime the fuel system as carefully as I can and if the 90 still won't start I'll take some video with sound and you guys can have a listen to the lump.

Till then, many thanks for helping out. David.

With the 2.5NA I used to own, it took a bunch of cranking after bleeding, despite being well bled without bubbles. It "may" help to crack the injector lines until they all spit fuel, then tighten them all up.

The 200TDI does not care and fires right away, but that was my own experience with the 2.5NA

David,

I'm thinking you SHOULD get a click as the shut off solenoid opens up or closes down. No click means no fuel.

On all of my diesels I've put an outboard engine sqeeze bulb in line before the fuel filter and used that instead of those gimpy lift pump handles. Fast and efficient.

On a 300Tdi the fuel return lines don't carry much fuel at all and can easily have air in then with no detriment to normal running. So I'm thinking the same is lilely for the 2.5NA. I determined this by using clear fuel line.

I've also used clear fuel line between filter and injection distributer pump to ensure there was no air getting to the high pressure pump.

Clear line does come in fuel grade. If you are down here it is available at Coast Industrial on Duplin St. I'll be in that area tomorrow and can get some for you if you need.

Rgds
JD

JD & red90 - I hear you on the Tdi front. I get the same experience on my 300. Never fails to start first time after a filter change.

Back to the NAD, I'm interested in JD's comment about the solenoid, which seems to make sense, but on the other hand I did get fuel in the injector line on turn over. Is there a possibility that this was just whatever was left in the distributor and had I cranked for a long time it would have dried up? I may check that next time I'm working on the truck.

Clear fuel line, I like the idea. I remember you (JD) mentioning it a month or so back in a post about your 110. I'm in Victoria on Thursday anyway, so may well pick some up. I also like the outboard bulb idea - maybe you should put a patent on that!

Thanks for the continued encouragement, I'll post an update when I next get chance to work on the truck.

Cheers, David

Hi David,

You could try Island Tractor north of Duncan for your bolt.

As for the leek at your fuel filter, check that there are no extra gaskets in the filter housing and that your gaskets are the right size for the filter. I have a collection of extras' at the farm if you need any new ones.

Lastly, try cracking the all the fuel injectors and cranking, with your foot to the floor, till fuel comes out of all of them. Then tighten No1 & 3 injector and repeat, it should start, then quickly run round and tighten the other two injectors.

Best of luck Oliver

timing belt?

If you have fuel and you have compression.... then she should run, or at least try to run...

The fuel solenoid should CLICK when there is 12V applied to it!! If it does not no fuel... You can check it with an ohm meter and see it has an open circuit, im not too sure of what the reading should be.. or you can use a test light... disconnect the sol power wire hook up one end of the test light to 12V pos and touch the other end to the sol where you took the supply wire off and it should light up if it is ok...NOTE it might be a dull light depending on the resistance of the sol. the sol could still be mechanicaly faulty if the electrical side is ok. This is also an easy way to check glow plugs.. disconnect the power supply to each plug and use the test light... yes one end goes to the bat positive the other to the end of the glow plug.. if it lights up the gp is ok...
Don

Have you done a compression test? Sometimes the winter diesel here cleans out all the carbon build up and your compression drops enough that the engine will no longer start unless warmed up first, power also suffers.

I've mamanged to get a replacement bolt for the fuel filter from Duncan Industrial Supply, a $0.45 bargain to boot, yeah! :D

From the collected rsponse to my earlier postings I am pointing the finger of suspicion firmly at the solenoid. Doughboy was the most emphatic that it should click when power applied, JD also mentioned this. Mine certainly does not.

I'm also not 100% sure the lift pump is working correctly. Externally it looks identical to the unit found on a 2.25 series gas engine - which makes sense as essentially the engines share internals. Can anyone confirm that they are the same? I think I have a series pump lurking somewhere.

I don't have a spare solenoid. Any pointers on where to get one locally? Would Dixon Strachan have one? I'll give him a call. I can always order it on-line of course, but that'll take a week or so to get here.

Contiuned thanks to you all for helping out here. I'm learning fast...

Cheers, David

Pull the solenoid off. Remove the valve internals, put back on. See if it runs.

You'll obviously need to stall it to stop it.

BUT...you said you had fuel at the injectors which is not possible unless the valve is working.

From what you have said you have fuel, you have glow, you have cranking... you have not tested for compression... I'm serious, I've seen this more than once with exmil 2.5na diesels here in western Canada.

Failing being able to do a compression test can you park it in a heated garage and get the temp of the engine up with some heaters or something like that?

When you try to start it glow it for about 40 seconds first then crank it for about 30 seconds. Repeat a few times and see if any sort of smoke or diesel smell comes from the tail pipe.

BTW... cheaking for compression is like checking for spark in a petrol engine if it is not running.

David,

Tony at Iron GOat has my old 2.5na dist pump. It might still be at action injection in Naniamo. Pump apparrantly thrashed. Tony might part out.

Leak at fuel filter might be lift pump pushing too much fuel into filter?
I have a used 2.5 NA pump here. The same innards and cam arm for 300Tdi just different pipe outlets. So if you hae a spare 300Tdi pump it will work fine.
Solenoid should click. Absolutely. Probably it's the same solenoid as in the 300Tdi. .. and so it is likely a standard part for a number of pumps. Action Injection in Naniamo (again) may have one kicking around.

And as adnrew stated, a good compression check won't hurt a thing.

JD

Dixon Strachan is sending me a used solenoid and I've ordered a new one from him too - with a bit of luck the used one should turn up in the mail today.

Jefft - will PM you to see if I can borrow that compression tester.

Oliver - you were spot on on the extra gaskets in the filter housing thing - I had inserted the new one and there was an old one lurking in there too. Good call.

Many thanks to all - I feel it in my water that I'm going to have the old girl back on the road this week, erm, or maybe next :D

Cheers, David

David,

Gawd no! Don't get your water into the diesel Does all kinds of bad things to the 3rd stage malt/barley concentrator pump!

JD

Success!

New (well, slightly used) distributor pump solenoid arrived in the mail from Dixon Strachan today (thanks mate) and after a bit of fiddling about (I had to drive to where my 80" and all my best tools are to get a long neck 24mm socket) Olive is running again! :D

http://landrover.attrisoft.com/olive/OliveFixed.jpg

There's a nice loud click from the new solenoid when I turn the key and she starts up with little or no glow, so I guess the compression is ok.

One thing I did learn (I'm sure this is not in the book) is that when bleading the distibutor the ignition should be on so the valve the solenoid controls is open. Until I figured this out even ewith the new solenoid in I was getting nothing.

Also found that the type of fuel filter I'm using (see picture on earlier post) does not like the top rubber gasket to be in place. If you fit it, the filter leaks from the top, without it it's all fine. I'll keep an eye on this as it seems a little odd, but that's what I found works.

Ok, just before a well earned beer, let me say thanks again to everyone who made sugestions, it was fun! :shock:

David

Good to hear that it is running again at that it was something simple.