Just got my "new to me" 62 109 2a on the road and she had a brake slave cylinder failure... not a big surprise, nor is it a big deal... except I can't seem to figure out how to remove the shoes! Drum is off, no problem there, it's those damned springs!!! Managed to get the top one off, barely, but the bottom one is not interested in my negotiations! I am interested in finding out how to remove the shoes correctly and then putting them back on with out using a 9lb sledge!
Thanks.
Andrew
109 11" brake shoe removal
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andrewMcF
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Dave_F
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Greg S
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I use a long, 10" flat screwdriver to lever the shoe off the bottom hinge a bit, then the other shoe off the bottom hinge. Once they are both off the bottom, they still aren't free but now you can lever one at a time off the top, now they can be removed. To put them on, do the same in reverse. You will notice the springs HAVE to go on before the shoes do so it's tricky. Make sure you take a picture or have a good memory so you know what holes the springs go in because there are several holes and they all look the same and all look like they are the proper ones for the springs. (Not!)
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andrewMcF
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Strange but successful
So it looks like the brakes in the front of my 109 are brakes from the back... (slave at the top with two pistons) weird... but besides the point...
So I ended up pulling the hub off and using a pry bar to force the bottom shoe off it's keeper by pivoting off the stub axle(protected by copious amounts of shop towels)... success! evil springs!
Andrew
So I ended up pulling the hub off and using a pry bar to force the bottom shoe off it's keeper by pivoting off the stub axle(protected by copious amounts of shop towels)... success! evil springs!
Andrew
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andrewMcF
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Not working...
So I'm getting the impression that Rear brakes in the front are not exactly a good idea...
I don't seem to be able to get a good pedal, I always have to double pump the brakes even when the brakes are adjusted tight to the drums...
It would be my guess that the springs on the back brakes are designed to lag behind the springs in the front drive allowing for more pressure to the front hydrolics...
I'm guessing this is why I can't get good pedal...
And to put new proper brakes on the front will cost me close to $700 as each backing plate is $200.00!!! plus $40.00 for each of the 4 slaves...
grrr, almost thinking about going to disks....
Andrew
I don't seem to be able to get a good pedal, I always have to double pump the brakes even when the brakes are adjusted tight to the drums...
It would be my guess that the springs on the back brakes are designed to lag behind the springs in the front drive allowing for more pressure to the front hydrolics...
I'm guessing this is why I can't get good pedal...
And to put new proper brakes on the front will cost me close to $700 as each backing plate is $200.00!!! plus $40.00 for each of the 4 slaves...
grrr, almost thinking about going to disks....
Andrew
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Greg S
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Disks are good!
I'm sure that if you posted in the wanted section that somebody would have several sets of 109 front backing plate available. And $40 for a cylinder sounds a bit steep.
I'm wondering if you have a 109 or an 88 master cylinder. That or the shoes are on the wrong locations. There are adjusting pins that the snail cams position the shoes with. The pins on the shoes are a few millimeters different and it makes a difference. You have to look closely at two different shoes to see the 3 or 4 mm difference in position then when you hold them up to position you can easily see if it is the right one for that cam.
I'm sure that if you posted in the wanted section that somebody would have several sets of 109 front backing plate available. And $40 for a cylinder sounds a bit steep.
I'm wondering if you have a 109 or an 88 master cylinder. That or the shoes are on the wrong locations. There are adjusting pins that the snail cams position the shoes with. The pins on the shoes are a few millimeters different and it makes a difference. You have to look closely at two different shoes to see the 3 or 4 mm difference in position then when you hold them up to position you can easily see if it is the right one for that cam.
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andrewMcF
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rear on the front
The slave I rebuilt with a kit to rebuild rear 109 brakes, however I do believe that they are the same kits... The slaves do look the same as the rear ones though.
As for the shoes I did put the leading one on the front and the trailing one towards the back, I looked it up(go google!)...
How much was the disk conversion.
Andrew
As for the shoes I did put the leading one on the front and the trailing one towards the back, I looked it up(go google!)...
How much was the disk conversion.
Andrew
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DaveB
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Rovertech sells a disk conversion for Series trucks. Not cheap, but comes with everything you should need.
You should be able to take the drums in and get them turned without the hubs as my experience with running brake turning equipment (many years) is that there are cones that will support Land Rover drums on any reasonable machine. Obviously there may be a few less capable machines out there, but it should be easy to find one that will do the job.
I wonder what size of wheel cylinders you have? In my experience, about 10-15 years ago the supply of true series II & III wheel cylinders ran out, and when you order a series I, II or III wheel cylinder now, you're often getting one from a very late series I or an early Defender with drum brakes on the back.
The problem with these wheel cylinders is the circumference, and therefore the total volume, of the wheel cylinder is much larger than the older cylinders that the truck was originally fitted with.
The net result of this is your Master cylinder was not designed to move as much fluid as these cylinders need to activate the brakes. Thus, if everything else is in order on your brakes you can still often end up with two-push brakes, which is unacceptable in my opinion.
Several ways to fix:
1. Find original wheel cylinders and rebuild them.
2. Find a Series III Master cylinder, dual curcuit, with booster and replace the master cylinder (what I did to my 1966)
3. Go to disks.
There may be other ways of fixing this, but those are the ones I'm aware of.
Saw your 88 yesterday when I was at the lawnmower shop ordering belts.
cheers, Dave
You should be able to take the drums in and get them turned without the hubs as my experience with running brake turning equipment (many years) is that there are cones that will support Land Rover drums on any reasonable machine. Obviously there may be a few less capable machines out there, but it should be easy to find one that will do the job.
I wonder what size of wheel cylinders you have? In my experience, about 10-15 years ago the supply of true series II & III wheel cylinders ran out, and when you order a series I, II or III wheel cylinder now, you're often getting one from a very late series I or an early Defender with drum brakes on the back.
The problem with these wheel cylinders is the circumference, and therefore the total volume, of the wheel cylinder is much larger than the older cylinders that the truck was originally fitted with.
The net result of this is your Master cylinder was not designed to move as much fluid as these cylinders need to activate the brakes. Thus, if everything else is in order on your brakes you can still often end up with two-push brakes, which is unacceptable in my opinion.
Several ways to fix:
1. Find original wheel cylinders and rebuild them.
2. Find a Series III Master cylinder, dual curcuit, with booster and replace the master cylinder (what I did to my 1966)
3. Go to disks.
There may be other ways of fixing this, but those are the ones I'm aware of.
Saw your 88 yesterday when I was at the lawnmower shop ordering belts.
cheers, Dave
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Roverworks
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andrewMcF
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slave dimension
I have a slave off of my 88" and it is a smaller diameter the width is the same but definitely narrower... this is off a 88" though...
The one thing I'm noticing though is that once the shoes are installed and the drum is on hit the brakes ad then the shoes will flex outwardly, away from the back plate pulling the adjustment post just out of reach of the snail screws...
Andrew
The one thing I'm noticing though is that once the shoes are installed and the drum is on hit the brakes ad then the shoes will flex outwardly, away from the back plate pulling the adjustment post just out of reach of the snail screws...
Andrew
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DaveB
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Well good to hear someone has them. For a long time they didn't seem to be available, but maybe I was just looking to the wrong source!Roverworks wrote:I am going to respectfully differ with Dave….I have the Lucas-Girling wheel cylinders in stock bearing the correct part #’s and dimensionally identical to the original. :D
Alan
Rover Works BC Ltd
Dave
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andrewMcF
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The saga continures
Sooo.....
Finally think i have it figured out... maybe...
So the reason the shoes where buckling away from the backing plate is because I had the bottom spring in a set of wholes too low, top spring was in correct and in on the back side as it's supposed to be... But the bottom spring was in between the backing plate and the shoes but too low and that would rest against a curve in the backing plate pushing the shoes out...
Try #2...
Put the bottom spring on the proper whole and that fixed it from resting against the backing plate but... the top spring was a real chore to get on in between the shoe and backing plate so I've seen a picture with it on the outside, much easier.... Still pulled away from the backing plate lifting the shoes away from the snail screws.... grrrr
Try #3
Bottom spring in the proper set of wholes, not resting against the backing plate, the top spring on the back side of the shoes, pulling towards the backing plate not away from it... and TADAAA! Advancing posts stay resting against the snail screws and I no longer have to double/triple pump.
It's amazing what happens when you do it correctly...
Now that being said I still have air in my lines, I'll fix that but I do believe that I'm still going to have a longer pedal the I should due to the extra diameter of the slaves... My 88" is like that, a bit of a longer pedal, I can still lock the wheels up it's just that tenth of a second later then if the pedal was higher.
Andrew
Finally think i have it figured out... maybe...
So the reason the shoes where buckling away from the backing plate is because I had the bottom spring in a set of wholes too low, top spring was in correct and in on the back side as it's supposed to be... But the bottom spring was in between the backing plate and the shoes but too low and that would rest against a curve in the backing plate pushing the shoes out...
Try #2...
Put the bottom spring on the proper whole and that fixed it from resting against the backing plate but... the top spring was a real chore to get on in between the shoe and backing plate so I've seen a picture with it on the outside, much easier.... Still pulled away from the backing plate lifting the shoes away from the snail screws.... grrrr
Try #3
Bottom spring in the proper set of wholes, not resting against the backing plate, the top spring on the back side of the shoes, pulling towards the backing plate not away from it... and TADAAA! Advancing posts stay resting against the snail screws and I no longer have to double/triple pump.
It's amazing what happens when you do it correctly...
Now that being said I still have air in my lines, I'll fix that but I do believe that I'm still going to have a longer pedal the I should due to the extra diameter of the slaves... My 88" is like that, a bit of a longer pedal, I can still lock the wheels up it's just that tenth of a second later then if the pedal was higher.
Andrew