1960 SII 109 Teardown

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oldgravy · #51 Post by **oldgravy** » Tue Apr 12, 2016 12:55 pm

@swami and @red yeah, you guys are right. I had that thought while I was disassembling my ball (joints) yesterday. If I strip the frame, how will I protect the areas I can't get to?

I didn't come up with a great answer, but it's good to know that galv is not that expensive. It'll need to go to a shop for repairs first though for sure, and I will need to source a complete rear cross-member.

S3ute · #52 Post by **S3ute** » Wed Apr 13, 2016 2:46 am

Hello again from Brisbane.

While on the topic of tie rod ends - especially given that the ones I am seeing in the various photos look like they are now u/s - be aware that Series Land Rovers are supposed to have used two different but similar looking parts. The older trucks up to about early Series 3 had an unthreaded section on both the steering rod tube end and the tie rod joint which is where the clamp goes. The Series 3 had a thread all the way in both the tube and joint which was clamped over the thread.

Parts suppliers are likely to not notice the difference and sell the later fully threaded type which does not interchange well - either way the clamp is ineffective and usually results in premature wear of the thread and possibly failure of the steering itself. So, best to check what thread arrangement you actually have and buy the correct part for it.

Cheers,

Neil

S3ute · #53 Post by **S3ute** » Wed Apr 13, 2016 2:57 am

oldgravy wrote:
Irritatingly, there's just one pit on the driver's side swivel ball:

I don't suppose it can be sanded smooth so as not to damage the seal too much and left? Didn't think so, so it looks like one of those will get added to the parts list as well.

Frustratingly close to having a bare frame.

Hello again.

Back when these trucks were more common you used to be able to get them rechromed quite cheaply. Not now unfortunately. However, if they aren't too bad - yours seems good - some people over here sometimes use epoxy resin to fill pits and I gather with some success.

Cheers,

Neil

oldgravy · #54 Post by **oldgravy** » Fri Apr 22, 2016 4:13 pm

Well, I'm truly flummoxed by the steering relay.

Left it for a week with the weight of the truck on it -- of course, it didn't move. So today I decided to rig up a small cradle to hang the jack from the frame. I used some chain and an AR500 steel target, since I don't have anything else and (even if I did) no way to fabricate what I need... all I have is hand tools.

Anyway, the score is steering relay: 2, oldgravy: 0.

Yes, I'm aware it's a terrible looking bodge, but it's what I have.

The relay even left a dent or two in the top of my 8-ton bottle jack:

Short of cutting it out, any last ideas?

DrRangelove · #55 Post by **DrRangelove** » Sat Apr 23, 2016 10:47 am

You can try rebuilding it in situ. Thats what im doing - bought a seal kit and had same issues as you trying to remove the relay housing so i just pulled the internals. If you do this, beware of the big honking spring that is likely under tension in there!

oldgravy · #56 Post by **oldgravy** » Sun Apr 24, 2016 4:20 pm

DrRangelove wrote:You can try rebuilding it in situ. Thats what im doing - bought a seal kit and had same issues as you trying to remove the relay housing so i just pulled the internals. If you do this, beware of the big honking spring that is likely under tension in there!

I want to have the chassis acid dipped and galv'ed. So it needs to come out one way or t'other!

DrRangelove · #57 Post by **DrRangelove** » Sun Apr 24, 2016 10:52 pm

Ahh i see. Have you tried applying heat yet?

DrRangelove · #58 Post by **DrRangelove** » Sun Apr 24, 2016 10:55 pm

https://youtu.be/PQ8mofJM7TI

DrRangelove · #59 Post by **DrRangelove** » Sun Apr 24, 2016 10:58 pm

https://youtu.be/A2OL9DXTPx0

The_Anachronist · #60 Post by **The_Anachronist** » Mon Apr 25, 2016 6:15 am

Gravy,
I just last night managed to get the steering column, steering box, pitman arm and whatever we call the first steering rod that runs to the relay, all out as an assembly. Had to undo all the bracket bolts, then slide and wiggle and turn the wheel and curse and then it was out.
When it's out and on the bench, getting that arm off the steering box is super easy...
Sometimes I can't believe that the same engineers somehow won the Battle of Britain!

The_Anachronist · #61 Post by **The_Anachronist** » Mon Apr 25, 2016 9:59 am

DrRangelove wrote:https://youtu.be/PQ8mofJM7TI

OK that one is impressive overkill...

oldgravy · #62 Post by **oldgravy** » Wed Apr 27, 2016 3:20 pm

Thanks guys. I've tried various methods as suggested in the various videos. The score now is Relay: 3, OldGravy: 0.

Went to Alder Auto and bought a 6" puller. Figured, what the hell? May as well give that method a try.

Nope. That's a bent wrench, bent bracket, bent frame which as you can see has prised the ears that the bolts pass through away from the top of the relay, and that's about it. I've reefed on that thing and she ain't movin'.

I'm somewhat leery about heating up a large area of the frame to see if it'll help. Honestly worried about annealing a crucial area.

Getting very discouraged about this, actually, and all other work on the LR has stopped for the past couple weeks as a result. I've spent a fair bit buying stuff to hack together a fix and so far, no go. Time to call the professionals, or just cut the f*cking thing out. I really don't have the tools or hardware to fabricate a more robust solution.

Anyone want to buy a 6" puller? I can't imagine I'll ever use it again.

red90 · #63 Post by **red90** » Wed Apr 27, 2016 5:09 pm

It does not look like you have even broken the paint to the upper support. You want to at least get that cut free. The jack will have much more force that a little puller.

BOlson · #64 Post by **BOlson** » Wed Apr 27, 2016 10:55 pm

Have you tried soaking the relay with penetrating oil? ( a 50\50 mix of acetone and ATF works great and it's cheap) or PB blaster?... We also use a Walter product called "cold shock " at work and it will free up severely seized bolts .. Don't bother with wd40 it doesn't really do anything other than make stuff shiny for a while

The_Anachronist · #65 Post by **The_Anachronist** » Thu Apr 28, 2016 11:27 am

Now I'm getting scared... my relay removal starts this weekend!

If you can find Aero-Kroil, that stuff is hands down the shizzle for penetrating oil/rust breaker. Soak it and walk away. Repeat for days.

As for heat annealing the steel, I think you would have to work pretty hard to get it hot enough (red-hot). And if you did, you could temper it again but I really don't think you will get there.

Shock is the other key - pressure with the puller, then a whack with the hammer on anything in contact with the seized area (not damaging stuff of course).

If it comes down to it, I have a spare sawed-out section of a 109 frame, complete with stuck relay here! Cheap!

Oh and I might just buy that puller off you... bring it with you!

oldgravy · #66 Post by **oldgravy** » Mon May 02, 2016 9:12 am

red90 wrote:It does not look like you have even broken the paint to the upper support. You want to at least get that cut free. The jack will have much more force that a little puller.

Heh, the shiny stuff you're seeing on the upper support bracket is penetrating oil.

red90 · #67 Post by **red90** » Mon May 02, 2016 12:13 pm

The oil won't affect or get past the paint. You need to physically remove that first.

oldgravy · #68 Post by **oldgravy** » Sat Jun 18, 2016 5:37 pm

The score is now Steering Relay: 4, OldGravy: 0. The relay has defeated me for good!

TheAnachronist popped by a couple of weeks ago and has some video of me taking his steel cradle and 12-ton bottle jack to it. Unfortunately, the frame bulged and the casting on the top of the steering relay failed, sending the top of the relay up into my garage door.

Now to go look at disassembly videos for the relay to get that spring out of there... it would seem the whole front crossmember will have to be cut out.

The_Anachronist · #69 Post by **The_Anachronist** » Sun Jul 03, 2016 9:13 am

I feel terrible! But that little bastard was NOT coming out of there... If it's any consolation my steering relay housing is cracked too! Have to look at making an adaptor ring for the Eliminator.

oldgravy · #70 Post by **oldgravy** » Mon Sep 26, 2016 11:09 am

Been a while since I posted an update. You know how it goes.

The top of the steering relay sheared right off around where a set screw seems to sit on the outside. It sat there for a couple of months as I moved on to other projects, but since the much-rumoured spring was still there and under tension, I figured I had better finally deal with the guts of the relay. So I pulled the bottom plate off, as advised, and hammered the guts down into a cardboard box with my coveralls in them to absorb any bouncy things that might fall out.

Much to my chagrin nothing happened. The spring was there, to be sure, but it just fell out the bottom with the rest of the relay guys. I was expecting all manner of things, from bearings to fireworks to dancing gnomes, and reality was quite underwhelming. Note: your mileage may vary! Read your shop manual.

These are the contents of my steering relay:

That's it, I guess?

Maybe one day soon I'll beg / borrow an engine crane and pull out the gearbox and engine, leaving the axles and a bare frame.

The_Anachronist · #71 Post by **The_Anachronist** » Thu Oct 06, 2016 2:24 pm

You and me both. I have just moved house, the new garage is not only small but crammed with crap. But I will get the Rover back here and rent a hoist and we can do both in one day! (in case that doesn't happen soon enough for you, Brookswood Rentals has them, as I'm every other decent rental joint does).

Sadness over no wrench-spinning for months... between renovating, selling, moving in and more renovating, I very much doubt I will be on the Rover until the New Year at the soonest!

The_Anachronist · #72 Post by **The_Anachronist** » Mon Jan 08, 2018 9:43 pm

Gravy: I now own an engine crane. What’s your situation?

ANDYD · #73 Post by **ANDYD** » Tue Jan 09, 2018 10:36 pm

Hi,
I'm just about to start on my Steering relay and reading this (and other bad experiences online) makes me very nervous!
Just curious, isn't it possible to leave the relay body in place and just remove the internal parts for replacement?

cheers,
Andy

The_Anachronist · #74 Post by **The_Anachronist** » Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:26 pm

Well, yes, and there are those who are quite insistent that this is what you should do. Makes me nervous, personally.
If you would like to use the Eliminator, let me know. I’d recommend working up some kind of spacer to avoid the destruction Gravy and I experienced. Let me know...

cbalme · #75 Post by **cbalme** » Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:35 pm

Andy

I didn't rebuild mine, I don't think there is much that can go wrong on the inside. I chose to fill mine with One Shot Grease through a grease nipple where the fill bolt was. It hasn't leaked out so far and my Relay turns nice and easy. I would recommend against taking it apart because from DrRangeLove's photos it looks like a hell of a job to get that spring back in.

Just my thoughts.

DrRangelove · #76 Post by **DrRangelove** » Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:27 am

Hi Andy, thats exactly what I did. Its documented in my rebuild thread but the pics are no longer there (photobucket wonkers!).
Its pretty straightforward if you have a good vice, hose clamps, zip ties and a big pair of cojones!
(Scariest bit is compressing the spring and cutting the zip ties)

DrRangelove · #77 Post by **DrRangelove** » Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:42 am

cbalme wrote:Andy

I didn't rebuild mine, I don't think there is much that can go wrong on the inside. I chose to fill mine with One Shot Grease through a grease nipple where the fill bolt was. It hasn't leaked out so far and my Relay turns nice and easy. I would recommend against taking it apart because from DrRangeLove's photos it looks like a hell of a job to get that spring back in.

Just my thoughts.

In theory its easy but its a finnickity job - i had to recompress the spring a dozen times before i got it right as the spring wants to bulge and bow when you add tension. The first time i tried to get it back in the relay the spring was compressed but bowed and i ended up busting the washers as i cranked it back in the housing - i attribute this more to my impatience and brute stupidity though. A pro such as Andy probably wouldn’t make this mistake!
If anyone decides to go down this route, make sure you wear a good full face shield. Goggles alone are not enough...
Im glad i rebuilt it with new tufnol bushes, seals and filled with EP90 (used gasket maker also to be extra safe) - it steers beautifully now and doesnt leak. Someone in the past had done the bearing grease method and the internals of the relay were rusting. The tufnol bushes were also pretty worn out, i guess due to insufficient lubrication. One shot might be better than bearing grease though...

oldgravy · #78 Post by **oldgravy** » Mon Jan 15, 2018 2:54 pm

My plan was (is) to just get a new one. Even if I didn't have to cut the old one out of the frame, I anticipated the surfaces inside we're going to be too pitted to be salvageable. Now, with the housing still in the frame I have no choice. But hey, at least I don't have to worry about disassembly!

Mr. Anachronist, my engine and gearbox are in the frame still and I need to buy an engine stand off of Craigslist. Otherwise, I am good to pull it out!

The_Anachronist · #79 Post by **The_Anachronist** » Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:55 am

Ok Gravy, just let me know when you want to use it!

oldgravy · #80 Post by **oldgravy** » Thu Sep 13, 2018 1:08 pm

The disassembly of the LR is almost complete. I'm so close I can taste it! The only thing that remains attached to the frame is the rear axle housing and leaf springs. Everything else is detached and in the basement or on an engine stand.

The attachment IMG_20180912_204417.jpg is no longer available

Some problems remain, however. I can't get one of the hubs off of the brake drum. The screw you see is the best one I have left after mangling the others to get them out. I've tried pounding on it with a block of wood and a 4lb hammer but no go. I may have to see if I can make a poor man's shop press by putting it underneath a bottle jack and trying to lift my pickup.

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I have a stubborn bearing to remove. Judging by the amount of mileage this old truck likely did I'm sure I'll want to replace it, but I don't want to pry the sh*t out of the thing lest I do some permanent damage.

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Also I don't know why the brake backing plates were painted yellow. They just were.

Oh, and if you've followed this thread at all you'll not be surprised to learn that only one of the bolts for the backing plate on the right rear was finger tight -- the rest were loose (wobbly) enough to undo by hand.

The keen-eyed among you will see a bunch of shiny stuff on the shop rag in this photo. That's metal from inside the axle casing. Also, when I drained the diff there were a few 'chunks' that came out. Not encouraging for the diff, but we'll get to that later.

: IMG_20180912_204257.jpg (184.22 KiB) Viewed 1187 times

So that's where we are. Close, but no cigar -- yet.

red90 · #81 Post by **red90** » Fri Sep 14, 2018 6:57 am

That spindle with the stuck bearing is toast anyway with so many deep gouges, so I would just replace it. To remove the drum, you need to put a normal hex head bolt into the threaded hole and push it off.

oldgravy · #82 Post by **oldgravy** » Fri Sep 14, 2018 1:53 pm

Thanks for both tips, @red90!

oldgravy · #83 Post by **oldgravy** » Sun Sep 16, 2018 6:03 pm

As it turns out, the thread pattern is weird. Some Google Fu suggested the threads on the drum were 5/16UNC, but that's not the case. Took one of my drum screws in to Alder Auto and the very helpful gentleman couldn't match the threads with his testers to anything -- not even whitworth.

Anyone know what S2 brake drums will take in the hub removal hole?

red90 · #84 Post by **red90** » Sun Sep 16, 2018 7:53 pm

3/8" BSW (coarse whitworth) originally. Newer drums on Defenders are 8 mm, so if a new drum was used, it could be that.

I assume you have the adjusters backed off?

oldgravy · #85 Post by **oldgravy** » Tue Sep 18, 2018 4:28 pm

You shouldn't assume anything given my intellect.

However in this case the drum / hub are both off the backing plate and on my work bench with the pads in a bucket for disposal. So, I think the drum and hub are just rusted together. Everything else is off.

Thanks for the thread pattern. I'll have to see if I can find a bolt to match!

oldgravy · #86 Post by **oldgravy** » Thu Oct 04, 2018 4:07 pm

Managed to get the rear axle off after some judicious application of the Land Rover Universal Part Removal Tool -- the u-bolts were not coming off no matter how many bad words I used. I even got creative with some of the bad words and it didn't work so I just rationalized that the bolts were non-reusable components anyway. Right?

The rear leaf springs were odd, of course. It seemed that one was shorter than the other, or maybe it was just collapsed slightly. The rear shackles were not at the same angle. In fact, there was a substantial difference between the two. Not worried about it, as I don't intend to keep the springs. They'll go to one of my in-laws for blade making.

I have to decide what to do with the rear axle. Readers might be kind enough to recall that the rear diff had chunks coming out with the EP90 when I drained it, and a bunch of silvery metal flakes in the bottom of the axle casing. Then, the bottom of the axle casing has had the pin holes elongated, somehow. Is this normal for LRs?

: 2018-09-27 11.55.29.jpg (157.72 KiB) Viewed 928 times

I know Land Rovers often have oval-shaped holes for bolts but surely this can't be right. Right?

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mepham55 · #87 Post by **mepham55** » Thu Oct 04, 2018 5:28 pm

That looks like the rear springs were loose and shifting a lot! I have a good rear axle case for a 109 if you’d like to replace that one.

Matt

oldgravy · #88 Post by **oldgravy** » Fri Oct 05, 2018 4:09 pm

Thanks Matt, might have to take you up on that some day. I'll have to take a look at the diff and see what shape it's in.

The pins on the leaf springs look fine. Maybe they're replacements? But there's no elongation on the leaves, so... I dunno, it looks to me like someone took a die grinder to it to make it fit and align properly.

oldgravy · #89 Post by **oldgravy** » Tue Oct 09, 2018 11:33 am

Well, that's it, folks. Four years after I started pulling this thing apart, it's finally down to a bare frame -- or as bare as it's going to get!

: 2018-09-30 18.26.24.jpg (181.33 KiB) Viewed 824 times

During that time I've had a(nother) baby, moved house, moved the land rover, and picked up and dropped a few hobbies along the way. You know how it is.

: 2018-09-30 18.26.34.jpg (198.87 KiB) Viewed 824 times

The axles are stripped of their major components, though the diffs are still inside. I'll get to those inevitably.

: 2018-09-30 18.26.57.jpg (165.71 KiB) Viewed 824 times

I'm going to post a short "lessons learned" topic in a few days I hope, but for now... job done!

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